The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

[Kamuscha]

From what I have read so far, this debate brought to light the fact that our playstyles on AWBW have changed over the years. And that's not a bad thing. The catalyst being the metagame and personal reasons for changing gameplay, it does not necessarily mean that the playstyles of old are bad. While they may have worked well at a time when arties were the norm, they are not favored in the current metagame. It is simply a different way of playing, very much like the various openings in chess. In my experience, people who played well on AWBW years ago play just as well as they did now, if not better. The changes in the metagame and gains in PvP experience played a large role in influencing their playstyles, not to mention their CO preferences. Even the COs themselves, with their specific abilities, had some part in influencing each player's way of playing. So skill level is not completely at fault here. Just remember that at one point in our lives, we were complete newbies and had absolutely no clue how to play advance wars. Look at how much we've progressed since then. I certainly have noticed how many of you improved since the first game I played with you. At this point with updated maps, the inclusion of com towers and the like, the current metagame favors direct units more than it did several years ago. Because of these changes, our playstyles will invariably adapt to them to maintain optimal gameplay with positive results. This is normal and encouraged in a competitive environment. We will always be experiencing differences in strategies and that is just what we need, to learn different ways to play optimally and adopt effective playstyles for each situation. If every single person played the exact same way in every single game without any deviation to the strategy, not that it is unrealistic, but I highly doubt any one of us would like to keep playing. Aside from that, the CO list will fluctuate from time to time until a long-established metagame stabilizes the tiers, which is very close to what we have now. The new tiers for High Funds and Limited High Funds are being solidified as long as people continue playing games relative to each game style. Nothing is set in stone and that's fine. There's always room for change.

It is good to express your opinions because your contributions and in-depth knowledge are well respected in the community. We appreciate your thoughts and perspectives on these CO's in discussion and always welcome your input on their strengths and weaknesses. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am having a hard time understanding how bashing the other person is beneficial to this interesting debate. If it is, then I'd like to understand how.

If specific games have to be made to prove a point, then by all means make them. Past experiences can only go so far to make a statement, and it is impossible for anyone to have the exact same kind of experience as another. It is that small difference that sets us apart from others and makes us unique. That's life. Just like society, the metagame is constantly changing with established values and internal conflict. Nothing is truly fixed. It simply means that we are growing up, changing over time.

[Ultra Storm]

And 6-7 star SCOPs charge exactly as fast as 6 years ago. They take a lot longer to charge than a 2 or 3 star COP, hence why less stars is better.

They did charge fast 6 years ago as well, people just didn't take notice. I'll say it in more quantifiable terms. Let's assume both players have 3 stars and no powers have been used. If a player uses COP and destroys 3 tanks, that charges over 2 further stars without the counterattack damage already. Then the other player only has to destroy a few vehicles to get a 6-7 star SCOP right after the enemy COP. How is this implausible? Sure, you could not attack with COP, but then the COP probably wasn't very useful.

So if league games on league maps are not well enough played for you to take the Kindle doing better than average stats into account, that just means you have less stats to work with.

Yes, obviously. It can't be helped.

Andy wins not due to being a counter but due to being better in general.

CO's are not better or worse in general, they don't exist in a vacuum and never play against bland CO's. You have to compare them against each other, preferably same tier CO's. Andy is not a better CO than Kindle, but he can sometimes take her on because he's a counter. In fact Andy is good because he's a counter to a lot of CO's. If the other CO's didn't have mass damage powers, and they all had a movement bonus power within 6 stars, then Andy would be less good then he is now. He's good because he's so often a counter. He heals damage from the mass damages CO's and gets first strikes in on CO's with no movement bonus.

Obviously, there's no convincing you on Andy being better than Kindle, so I'll leave that aside. Andy can take on mass damage COs better than the average CO, but he isn't a complete counter, because he can't use his own SCOP before the enemy's mass damage SCOP. With what could he repair the damage, then? However, the mass damage CO may be able to use SCOP first if he can take out enough of Andy's units in one turn. Hawke, on the other hand, is a hard counter to Olaf and Drake because he can both repair and use his own mass damage, while also having better D2D.

You're grasping to straws if you think Urban Blight is good for avoiding 3 hp counterattack damage from one matchup. That's just ludicrously bad compared to what other powers do.

Urban Blight can avoid counterattack damage from more than one matchup, and also gives an attack bonus from cities and deals mass damage. It's all these together that make it a great COP. Most other powers, especially COPs, generally do just one thing.

Urban Blight reduces counterattack damage when attacking a unit on a city or attacking from a city (rare). Generic attack boosts and generic mass damage reduce counterattack damage everywhere. As for the other effects, none of them materialized much, except for interrupting a few captures. Sure, you hit many units on City of Storms, but he was dead already and willingly wanted to sit on unnecessary properties.

Even Max can't 2HKO/OHKO an entire army. Especially not if most of it is beyond reach of the tanks and bcopters. For every tank two mechs can be build, and one tank can't sweep away two mechs, especially not if mountains are involved. Mechs do a fine job defending if there's a mass of units that needs defending. They can even get on mountains where other land units that do damage to tanks can't go. One mech can cover 12 tanks around it. In practice it's cover just the units in front of it, so half of that. That's enough, it does what it need to just. Just mechs doesn't work, but as a supporting unit it's often useful and cost efficient.

A tank covers many fronts and can reposition itself quickly. You may commonly need twice the mechs for the same defence as with tanks, which isn't reasonable with usual base capacity. And as I said, the mechs don't directly threaten the enemy tanks trying to get ready for their assault, so they can easily approach you. That's why mechs are inflexible.

Kindle is always a tough opponent too. I'd rather face simpler to handle CO's.

I usually do a small victory dance when the enemy picks Kindle. I had my fingers crossed for the gt game, too. The same applies to them building mechs, because it means they will cut vehicles.

[CO Raven]

I disagree with the notion that Max can't one hit or two hit an entire army. In the literal sense, it may be true. In an outcome sense, I think he can cripple an army to a point beyond repair. The new maps have a whole lot of fronts, many of which were he can employ a switchback method to overload a front and make it collapse. Just backing up won't work as he'll gladly occupy the new space and just not rush in yet full force. Due to the large number of maps that have air, he also has the land/air switch which is also powerful in pressure. With most fund/base ratios, mech spamming will be hampered by the fact that Max will be able to spam tanks at a similar pace. Max simply has aggressive mobility and cheap but effective powers. It isn't without cost but he does an excellent job with tempo and wall breaking, especially when the oh so common 1T situation. Shot of a heavily forested map with contested cities, I think he's clearly superior to Kindle. Kindle is more of a technical micromanager which is good in its own right but the current smattering of maps favor Max much more as the meta is more fast paced than Kindle likes (in my opinion anyway).

[Hellraider]

The games are rather too slow for Kindle. She is alright in fast paced games where Urban Blight is more likely to do something, and there are few enough units around so the opponent will not have SCOP immediately afterwards. Her COP is one of the few powers that do not get better at all with more units around (as opposed to either power boosts or real mass damage), so any sort of walls dampen her chances of winning considerably.

[Ultra Storm]

The games are rather too slow for Kindle. She is alright in fast paced games where Urban Blight is more likely to do something, and there are few enough units around so the opponent will not have SCOP immediately afterwards. Her COP is one of the few powers that do not get better at all with more units around (as opposed to either power boosts or real mass damage), so any sort of walls dampen her chances of winning considerably.

Very true. I mentioned this earlier, but large slow-paced maps with fewer contested properties have become more common. Maps like City of Storms, which are much better for Kindle than average, are of the type which was more common before.

[Abroxas]

I've resigned against Kruegster.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=171413

It's so sad to already take my leave. Feels like Greece or Czechia.

Congratulations to Kruegster!

[Walker]

You're still in the tournament, it's double elimination.

[sarastro]

GG Diwa. I resigned.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=171411

[oswaldoo12]

win the game with Ephraim. good game. dedicated to my friend walker ...

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=171406

[Kamuscha]

I have noticed you've played better since we've had a few games a long time ago. Good work oswaldoo, keep it up!

[Walker]

Haha I'm honored, but why dedicated to me?

[oswaldoo12]

haha by Their predictions. I like to go Against the predictions
kamusha thank you are a very good opponent

[Walker]

Ah, now I remember. Well now in the future I won't bet against you so lightly.

[NDA|D007]

Blast - I've had an extremely busy week and forgot to finish my move before the boot. Apologies, Hellraider; good game while it lasted.

[airob]

Forgot to post. I won my game against Kamuscha: http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=171414

Tough game, with a game-deciding SCOP. GG Kam.