The Grand Tournament II (Signups are CLOSED)

[benbever]

On hypnotize, I chose Olaf, Ultra chose Kindle. Winner: Olaf. On Atrocious I picked Kindle and Ultra chose Olaf. Winner: Olaf.

I think that has more to do with Olaf than with Kindle. Olaf has always been underestimated (maybe because he doesn't look cool, and has weather powers (nobody likes snow)) but he can be good. Olaf has a good cheap cop that is useful in getting first strikes in without retaliation in quick unit trade off games, and a good-for-value scop that brings snow and mass damage and is great in longer stand off types of games.
However in this discussion Kindle was compared to Drake, not Olaf. On Stir Before Using there's an airport. Olaf can cripple air with snow and has normal bcopters, where Drake's rain does nothing to bcopters and he has 80/100 bcopters himself. On this map I'd pick Olaf over both Kindle and Drake (that's why he was banned.)

I thought her scop would be a threat here. Not really the case.

Of course not. Her SCOP just gives an attack boost. It isn't any useful on normal maps (<25k per side.) If you want an attack boost you should pick Grimm. Just attack isn't all that useful without getting defense or extra movement. That's why Max and Sami are good, they get movement plus attack. Kindles COP is good because it's cheap and does multiple things, attack boost on cities and damage. Her scop is not cheap, and just gives extra attack to units not on cities but no mass damage. It's not good so don't use it (of course there are exceptions, but in general, stick with using COP as much as possible.)

AAs can OHKO inf walls and take out heavily wounded vehicles. They do tons of damage to copters even when wounded

I wasn't saying AAs aren't good, I was saying bcopters are good, and AAs don't change that. AAs can occasionally ohko lost infantry on road, that's their other usefulnes, but after that they're weak to almost everything. Almost everything can take out heavily wounded vehicles. bcopters do a fine job taking out wounded AA btw.

Sure, but I'd prefer to use a map other than Stir Before Using. If you don't mind picking a league map, I'll gladly make a game for us.

Ok, I suggested Stir Before Using because I wanted to keep it on-topic (and can use some practice on that map.) How about nb4DS or Puyo~ then?

[Walker]

Well I would like to not show my opponent what I might be doing on Stir Before Using. It's a little less important now since we're almost done with the capture phase in our game, but I'd still prefer a different map. Both of the maps you mentioned are quite small, with only 2 bases, important airports, and easily contested cities in the capture phase. I think it's very obvious that Kindle > Drake on those maps. I was thinking something more along the lines of Aphotic Arena or Elstar.

[benbever]

I didn't see you doing any superspecial secret stuff in the capture phase on Stir Before Using
Hey, don't generously let me pick the map and then reject them. 2 bases was kind of the point, as that helps a lot in showing why Kindle can be great. But yeah, I can see why you don't want to be Drake vs Kindle there. Elstar looks good. I haven't played on that yet, so I pick that map.

[Ultra Storm]

Olaf has a good cheap cop that is useful in getting first strikes in without retaliation in quick unit trade off games

Do you have any example games where Olaf did better with COP than SCOP? Snow is good, but it's hard to actually attack without mass damage.

However in this discussion Kindle was compared to Drake, not Olaf. On Stir Before Using there's an airport. Olaf can cripple air with snow and has normal bcopters, where Drake's rain does nothing to bcopters and he has 80/100 bcopters himself. On this map I'd pick Olaf over both Kindle and Drake (that's why he was banned.)

Could you show example games where Drake loses because of weak copters? The game vs BMB hardly counts, since he used COP and effectively didn't use AAs.

Of course not. Her SCOP just gives an attack boost. It isn't any useful on normal maps (<25k per side.) If you want an attack boost you should pick Grimm. Just attack isn't all that useful without getting defense or extra movement. That's why Max and Sami are good, they get movement plus attack. Kindles COP is good because it's cheap and does multiple things, attack boost on cities and damage. Her scop is not cheap, and just gives extra attack to units not on cities but no mass damage. It's not good so don't use it (of course there are exceptions, but in general, stick with using COP as much as possible.)

Do you have any concrete example game where Kindle's COP has done anything relevant? I usually see a result similar to your game vs Diwa, where it did almost nothing. Where has it hit half the units, like you were suggesting? Where has it let people attack from many cities during COP?

I wasn't saying AAs aren't good, I was saying bcopters are good, and AAs don't change that. AAs can occasionally ohko lost infantry on road, that's their other usefulnes, but after that they're weak to almost everything. Almost everything can take out heavily wounded vehicles. bcopters do a fine job taking out wounded AA btw.

Do you have example games where a copter spam defeated an army with only a few copters but more AAs and tanks on a map that doesn't have heavily copter-favoring terrain or huge funds for 2 bases?

In summary, we have seen "Kindle is great" hypotheses for many years now, but I'd like to see some actual proof. You even said that Kindle can take on Hawke, Eagle and Olaf, but where exactly has Kindle beaten them? The same applies to some other things, such as mechs supposedly being good despite hardly ever reaching a tank.

[Walker]

I didn't see you doing any superspecial secret stuff in the capture phase on Stir Before Using
Hey, don't generously let me pick the map and then reject them. 2 bases was kind of the point, as that helps a lot in showing why Kindle can be great. But yeah, I can see why you don't want to be Drake vs Kindle there. Elstar looks good. I haven't played on that yet, so I pick that map.

If 2 base was the point, why did you want Stir Before Using? I figured you were going to pick a similar type of map, not go for ones that obviously favor Kindle.

Anyways, I'll make the game on Elstar.

[benbever]

Do you have any example games where Olaf did better with COP than SCOP? Could you show example games where Drake loses because of weak copters? The game vs BMB hardly counts. Do you have any concrete example game where Kindle's COP has done anything relevant? Where has it hit half the units, where has it let people attack from many cities during COP? Do you have example games where a copter spam defeated an army with only a few copters but more AAs and tanks on a map that doesn't have heavily copter-favoring terrain or huge funds for 2 bases?

No, thank you, extremely specific games like that, between two equally skilled and good enough players, are very hard to find, and get deleted two weeks after completion anyway. It would take hours of searching, only for you to dismiss them because one player made some micromanagment error.
You could always accept my invitation (as walker did) to play with drake vs kindle on Stir Before Using (or better nb4DS or Puyo~), instead of ignoring it, and create some of the examples you requested.

By great coincidence I recently finished a game with Kindle for you to feast your eyeballs upon, where the game was over after Kindles first COP, that incidentally happened during the capture phase, and hit over half of the enemy units (6 out of 11.)
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=172001

Snow is good, but it's hard to actually attack without mass damage.

Most CO's can attack and even win games without relying on mass damage. I remember a game VS smackcakes where he kept using snow every other day halting my progress. Olafs COP is good when you can first strike a bcopter and maybe some vehicle, and then the unit covering the enemy unit (another bcopter or an AA) can't reach it because of snow. One or two free hits along with the slowed down progress because of sno can be enough to let Olaf gain the centre and an early advantage that'll win the game. If this situation does not occur then Olaf can just continue charging SCOP. I use SCOP way more than COP with Olaf, but COP -can- be great.

Where has it hit half the units, like you were suggesting? Where has it let people attack from many cities during COP?

I said COP might hit up to or even more than half of the units, in long games on 2 base maps where repairs are important. You try to make it sound like I said COP always hits over half of the units. It does not. Neither can you attack from cities very often, but it does happen. The bigger bonus is that enemy tanks attacking your tank on a city receive a lot of counterattack, so it's more of a defense thing.

Do you have example games where a copter spam defeated an army with only a few copters but more AAs and tanks on a map that doesn't have heavily copter-favoring terrain or huge funds for 2 bases?

Obviously bcopter spam works way better on a map that has "heavily copter-favoring terrain" why would you exclude that? It doesn't work at all on wide open plains with many bases and twenty predeployed AA.

we have seen "Kindle is great" hypotheses for many years now... ...mechs supposedly being good despite hardly ever reaching a tank.

Mechs are great value for money. On some maps they do reach and hit tanks, from mountains. Especially Sami and Adder and Koal are skilled with them. I Remember a game vs Taz or Kireato where I even lost to a Koal mech spam. And mech spam rarely works.
Kindle gets picked a lot, and according to co stats, wins more then 50% of her games usually.

[Ultra Storm]

No, thank you, extremely specific games like that, between two equally skilled and good enough players, are very hard to find, and get deleted two weeks after completion anyway. It would take hours of searching, only for you to dismiss them because one player made some micromanagment error.
You could always accept my invitation (as walker did) to play with drake vs kindle on Stir Before Using (or better nb4DS or Puyo~), instead of ignoring it, and create some of the examples you requested.

The difference to the Drake situation is the fact that Kindle has been praised for years while we have only discussed Drake for a short while. During this time, Kindle hasn't displayed many major wins, while Drake has in a short time shown some success. Ironically, the low number of Kindle games is due to her being placed into too high a tier.

I don't want to take a test game every time someone says Kindle is great, because it has been established already. If I want to spend my time testing something, I'd prefer something I don't know yet.

By great coincidence I recently finished a game with Kindle for you to feast your eyeballs upon, where the game was over after Kindles first COP, that incidentally happened during the capture phase, and hit over half of the enemy units (6 out of 11.)
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=172001

It hit over half the enemy units because your opponent was practically dead at that point, which in turn was not due to Kindle but him picking Jake, doing an inefficient capture phase and suiciding his units. The COP didn't even make much of a difference, other than interrupting a capture, and you would have won easily without it.

Most CO's can attack and even win games without relying on mass damage.

Those COs have good D2D stats or their powers give significant boosts. Kindle gets neither.

I remember a game VS smackcakes where he kept using snow every other day halting my progress. Olafs COP is good when you can first strike a bcopter and maybe some vehicle, and then the unit covering the enemy unit (another bcopter or an AA) can't reach it because of snow. One or two free hits along with the slowed down progress because of sno can be enough to let Olaf gain the centre and an early advantage that'll win the game. If this situation does not occur then Olaf can just continue charging SCOP. I use SCOP way more than COP with Olaf, but COP -can- be great.

By the time Olaf charges COP, the game will probably be past the point where you rush for the middle and there will be enough unit pileup that SCOP is far more useful for thinning their lines.

By any chance, is that example game vs. SmackCakes from around 4-6 years ago? As examples, I'd rather want something with a more modern, efficient play style.

I said COP might hit up to or even more than half of the units, in long games on 2 base maps where repairs are important. You try to make it sound like I said COP always hits over half of the units. It does not. Neither can you attack from cities very often, but it does happen. The bigger bonus is that enemy tanks attacking your tank on a city receive a lot of counterattack, so it's more of a defense thing.

The D2D is clearly a defence thing, but it doesn't make make it good enough. Similarly, hitting about 3 repairing units doesn't produce enough of a fund cut. And if the game takes really long, you'd really want mass damage or attack boosts instead of small fund cuts.

Obviously bcopter spam works way better on a map that has "heavily copter-favoring terrain" why would you exclude that? It doesn't work at all on wide open plains with many bases and twenty predeployed AA.

I discluded them because copters are obviously better in extreme conditions. The sort of terrain I'm discluding is not having a few mountains and woods here and there, but rather so much sea, mountains etc. that AAs have practically no chance. Your game vs. BMB, for example, was not on a map I meant to disclude, although it isn't bad for copters either.

Mechs are great value for money. On some maps they do reach and hit tanks, from mountains. Especially Sami and Adder and Koal are skilled with them. I Remember a game vs Taz or Kireato where I even lost to a Koal mech spam. And mech spam rarely works.

We have tried it, even Sami and Adder work better with tanks. Mechs just cut your vehicle builds and those vehicles would usually reach the front before the mechs. You built a lot of mechs in your game vs. Diwa too, but it didn't look like they ever got to do much.

And is that example game also from around 4-6 years ago? As examples, I'd rather want something with a more modern, efficient play style.

Kindle gets picked a lot, and according to co stats, wins more then 50% of her games usually.

Do you mean stats over all players? I was rather referring to competitive games.

[hetchel]

Her scop is not cheap, and just gives extra attack to units not on cities but no mass damage. It's not good so don't use it (of course there are exceptions, but in general, stick with using COP as much as possible.)

Do you have any concrete example game where Kindle's COP has done anything relevant?

I searched my saved replays, I found a game with Kindle which may be relevant to your interests.
Here is the html export:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31240947/Aphoti ... 20MYM.html
And the awbwtool replay file:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31240947/Aphoti ... 20MYM.awbw
I have to agree with benbever, her COP is definitely more useful than her SCOP.

In summary, we have seen "Kindle is great" hypotheses for many years now, but I'd like to see some actual proof. You even said that Kindle can take on Hawke, Eagle and Olaf, but where exactly has Kindle beaten them? The same applies to some other things, such as mechs supposedly being good despite hardly ever reaching a tank.

Sure, Kindle was not fit for High Tier, but I think she's fine in Mid Tier.
Maybe Kindle is like Mechs: most efficient against beginners, less against those who have learned how to tackle them cautiously.

[Ultra Storm]

I searched my saved replays, I found a game with Kindle which may be relevant to your interests.
Here is the html export:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31240947/Aphoti ... 20MYM.html
And the awbwtool replay file:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31240947/Aphoti ... 20MYM.awbw
I have to agree with benbever, her COP is definitely more useful than her SCOP.

9 hits are good with Urban Blight, although his tank on the neutral city was a bad idea, among other things. He gave you so many free shots, you would have won as just about anyone. For example, Max would have wrecked him harder during the COP turns.

Sure, Kindle was not fit for High Tier, but I think she's fine in Mid Tier.

In concrete terms, who does this mean Kindle regularly beats? Max, Drake, Grimm, Andy?

Maybe Kindle is like Mechs: most efficient against beginners, less against those who have learned how to tackle them cautiously.

That is true, of course. If your opponent leaves their tanks poorly shielded next to cities or mechs, Kindle and mechs perform well.

[benbever]

The difference to the Drake situation is the fact that Kindle has been praised for years while we have only discussed Drake for a short while... ...Ironically, the low number of Kindle games is due to her being placed into too high a tier.

I have been praising Drake ever since I joined AWBW. Whenever he was bottom or low tier in CO tier lists I commented on that. In fact he's my fifth most played CO. Ok that's mostly multiplayer and large maps because he's near broken there, but he's good on regular maps as well.
Kindle is/was often placed in a tier with Von Bolt or 1TJavier, which might be a bit much. I did win that testgame with Kindle vs von Bolt however. As with so many co tests, it's map dependant.

It hit over half the enemy units because your opponent was practically dead at that point, which in turn was not due to Kindle but him picking Jake, doing an inefficient capture phase and suiciding his units. The COP didn't even make much of a difference, other than interrupting a capture, and you would have won easily without it.

See, that's why giving examples is useless. The COP did make a lot of difference, it cost him a tank among other things. Of course Jake is a bad pick, but a lot of other CO's also wouldn't have had a SCOP yet.

Most CO's can attack and even win games without relying on mass damage.

Those COs have good D2D stats or their powers give significant boosts. Kindle gets neither.

Kindle gets a nice d2d boost of 140% attack on urban terrain, and a good and cheap COP that can be overcharged. She's decent but not great at both, that's why she's good. Some CO's have just a good d2d and an almost useless or way too expensive (s)cop, others have a great scop but no d2d at all. Kindle takes the middle road.

By the time Olaf charges COP, the game will probably be past the point where you rush for the middle and there will be enough unit pileup that SCOP is far more useful for thinning their lines.

Like I said, if there is unit pileup, then save for SCOP. But in some games tank/bcopter trade offs happen early game (often with Max) and in those cases COP can be great. Max has the advantage in tank tradeoff because of 120% attack, but early snow can turn that around and stop his next tank in its track (even with Max' cop.)

By any chance, is that example game vs. SmackCakes from around 4-6 years ago? As examples, I'd rather want something with a more modern, efficient play style.

I don't play any different now than 4-6 years ago. If anything I play more relaxed and less focused on winning. Definately not more modern or efficient. The game is from less than 4 years ago.

The D2D is clearly a defence thing, but it doesn't make make it good enough. Similarly, hitting about 3 repairing units doesn't produce enough of a fund cut. And if the game takes really long, you'd really want mass damage or attack boosts instead of small fund cuts.

The fund cuts can be pretty big depending on what's build and what's getting repaired. In long games a one property difference can be the difference between winning and losing. Fund cuts have the same effect. Sasha is great because the gets 10% more income. 10% doesn't look like much, but it is in advance wars. A big cut in income every few turns can hurt a lot. On repairing units, it's also keeping them away from the front, allowing your repaired units to get back first and make the difference. On top of that Kindle gets attack boosts from urban terrain. any of those things can make the difference.

We have tried it, even Sami and Adder work better with tanks. Mechs just cut your vehicle builds and those vehicles would usually reach the front before the mechs. You built a lot of mechs in your game vs. Diwa too, but it didn't look like they ever got to do much.

The mechs would have been very useful in defending. However the game was cut short by AET. In my games Adder is good with everything but mechs get a huge boost from his COP. Sami doesn't work with tanks. Sami wants Artillery and infantry and if possible mechs. If you need to play tanks with Sami then you have picked the wrong CO.

Do you mean stats over all players? I was rather referring to competitive games.

I mean stats over league maps. Most of the games played on those are competitive.

[benbever]

Sure, Kindle was not fit for High Tier, but I think she's fine in Mid Tier.

In concrete terms, who does this mean Kindle regularly beats? Max, Drake, Grimm, Andy?

Grimm and Drake (if air and no sea.) Andy is a counter, he can repair the damage and also doesn't need units on cities for repair often. Max and Kindle are both map dependant CO's so a matchup is really map dependant.

Maybe Kindle is like Mechs: most efficient against beginners, less against those who have learned how to tackle them cautiously.

I don't see how Kindle is more effective against beginners. I mean all CO's are effective against beginners, how is Kindle special? Kindle is definately not a very easy CO to use, so she isn't for beginners, but I don't see how she's good against them.
Mechs are indeed good against beginners who don't know how to counter them with infantry.

Anyways, I'll make the game on Elstar.

Have you made the game yet?

[Ultra Storm]

The fund cuts can be pretty big depending on what's build and what's getting repaired. In long games a one property difference can be the difference between winning and losing. Fund cuts have the same effect. Sasha is great because the gets 10% more income. 10% doesn't look like much, but it is in advance wars. A big cut in income every few turns can hurt a lot. On repairing units, it's also keeping them away from the front, allowing your repaired units to get back first and make the difference. On top of that Kindle gets attack boosts from urban terrain. any of those things can make the difference.

Sasha's D2D is much more substantial, and you need to compare Urban Blight to other powers. The fund cut is usually small compared to something like mass damage or a Max or Grimm COP wrecking a large part of their army. If you do the math, they need to be sitting on a ton of properties for Urban Blight to match these damage figures.

Sami doesn't work with tanks. Sami wants Artillery and infantry and if possible mechs. If you need to play tanks with Sami then you have picked the wrong CO.

And that's the reason why people prefer Hawke and others on large maps. On small maps, the inf advantage is better.

I mean stats over league maps. Most of the games played on those are competitive.

Not all of those represent very high gameplay, though. I'd rather look at actual games.

In concrete terms, who does this mean Kindle regularly beats? Max, Drake, Grimm, Andy?

Grimm and Drake (if air and no sea.) Andy is a counter, he can repair the damage and also doesn't need units on cities for repair often. Max and Kindle are both map dependant CO's so a matchup is really map dependant.

Andy only repairs 1 hp of mass damage from about 8 units. Does that really make him much of a counter? We talked about Drake already, but Kindle loses hard to Grimm too. After all, Grimm likes opponents who don't have useful COPs.

I don't see how Kindle is more effective against beginners. I mean all CO's are effective against beginners, how is Kindle special? Kindle is definately not a very easy CO to use, so she isn't for beginners, but I don't see how she's good against them.
Mechs are indeed good against beginners who don't know how to counter them with infantry.

If your opponent leaves their tanks poorly shielded next to cities or mechs, Kindle and mechs perform well.

Basically, that's the way you get Kindle to work. Otherwise, she isn't just hard to use effectively, she is impossible.

See, that's why giving examples is useless. The COP did make a lot of difference, it cost him a tank among other things. Of course Jake is a bad pick, but a lot of other CO's also wouldn't have had a SCOP yet.

Anyone with 120 attack would have 2HKOd the tank, so what's the big deal? That is almost every CO during COP with a tower. Hawke and Max would have done it D2D, even.

We have tried it, even Sami and Adder work better with tanks. Mechs just cut your vehicle builds and those vehicles would usually reach the front before the mechs. You built a lot of mechs in your game vs. Diwa too, but it didn't look like they ever got to do much.

The mechs would have been very useful in defending. However the game was cut short by AET.

The mechs would have been cannon fodder for vehicles or unable to hit anything relevant.

By any chance, is that example game vs. SmackCakes from around 4-6 years ago? As examples, I'd rather want something with a more modern, efficient play style.

I don't play any different now than 4-6 years ago. If anything I play more relaxed and less focused on winning. Definately not more modern or efficient. The game is from less than 4 years ago.

That could be true for you, but I certainly play more efficiently now and I have noticed that some other people do so as well. My past self would probably lose rather hard against me.

Maybe you'd see the Kindle and mech things if you'd updated your play style. And this is probably why the arguing was so pointless, since your reasoning is from the time when people played less efficiently and we hadn't tested these things properly.

[benbever]

Sasha's D2D is much more substantial, and you need to compare Urban Blight to other powers. The fund cut is usually small compared to something like mass damage or a Max or Grimm COP wrecking a large part of their army. If you do the math, they need to be sitting on a ton of properties for Urban Blight to match these damage figures.

I was comparing the urban blight fund cuts with other early game monetary advantage examples, a simple one being Sashas +100 per city. You can't compare the early COP Kindle enjoys with other COs mass damage scops (they cost much more stars) or with Max wrecking armies (Max has won if he can do that.) Urban blight might not always do a lot of damage in funds, but it comes early and often and important units are often on urban tiles. And like I said before, Kindle has both her urban attack bonus ánd her cop, that's what makes her good, not just one of the two.

Not all of those represent very high gameplay, though. I'd rather look at actual games.

Most of them do not represent very high gameplay. But very specific games between two skilled players that do not make mistakes are rare. And most people don't play perfect games anyway (if that is at all possible) so you might just look at the map stats since they're relevant to most players.

Andy only repairs 1 hp of mass damage from about 8 units. Does that really make him much of a counter?

Like I said, Andy repairs the 1hp damage with his cop or preferably scop, but he also has less damaged units (they get repaired during powers) and if he has them then he often does not need to put them on cities for repairs. He can repair them for free. So besides the repairing of mass damage, Andy also has less units on urban terrain, and those things together make him a counter.

We talked about Drake already, but Kindle loses hard to Grimm too. After all, Grimm likes opponents who don't have useful COPs.

Besides Drake, Grimm loses hard to Kindle too. After all, Kindle likes opponents who don't have useful COPs.
Grimms COP just gives him more attack power, which he already had enough of. He still can't reach units with it, he doesn't get extra range, movement or mass damage. If Kindle can't hit anything during COP she at least has decent mass damage. Or vice versa. Grimm is screwed if he can't pull of a big attack during (S)COP. In my experience, Grimm is the overrated CO here.

If your opponent leaves their tanks poorly shielded next to cities or mechs, Kindle and mechs perform well. Basically, that's the way you get Kindle to work. Otherwise, she isn't just hard to use effectively, she is impossible.

My opponents almost never leave their tanks poorly shielded next to cities or my mechs. That's just nonsense and bad play. Kindle is effective with just regular play, she can annoy the opponent from the beginning. Against Kindle you can't just shoot a unit on a city, because in Kindles turn she'll attack from that city with 140%.

Anyone with 120 attack would have 2HKOd the tank, so what's the big deal? That is almost every CO during COP with a tower. Hawke and Max would have done it D2D, even.

The big deal is that Hawke wouldn't have COP ready. Kindles COP is only 3 stars. Hawkes COP is 5 stars (and a waste since his scop is even better.) Also notice that there's no counterattack damage, mass damaging units to 7hp means easy picking and little or no counterattack damage for tank vs tanks on cities. Hawke would have gotten 3hp counterattack damage for the first tank. (5hp counterattack damage if it had been a Kindle tank on that city.)

The mechs would have been cannon fodder for vehicles or unable to hit anything relevant.

No, the mechs were behind tanks and covering them and were backup up by artillery. Lone mechs are cannon fodder. Mechs covering tank lines are cost efficient and great for defense. Mechs are less than half the price of tanks, but often do the same amount of damage as tanks. So as long as infantry can't threaten them and they are already where they want to be, they're great.

That could be true for you, but I certainly play more efficiently now and I have noticed that some other people do so as well. My past self would probably lose rather hard against me.

I noticed a lot a players are playing much better, and there are more better players as well. However we were talking about an old game of mine and I do not play better now than 4 years ago.

Maybe you'd see the Kindle and mech things if you'd updated your play style. And this is probably why the arguing was so pointless, since your reasoning is from the time when people played less efficiently and we hadn't tested these things properly.

Where are these proper tests of yours?
Like I said I did not play less efficiently, and neither did some other people. If Kindle and mechs keep winning me games then I'll keep using them.

[Ultra Storm]

I was comparing the urban blight fund cuts with other early game monetary advantage examples, a simple one being Sashas +100 per city. You can't compare the early COP Kindle enjoys with other COs mass damage scops (they cost much more stars) or with Max wrecking armies (Max has won if he can do that.) Urban blight might not always do a lot of damage in funds, but it comes early and often and important units are often on urban tiles. And like I said before, Kindle has both her urban attack bonus ánd her cop, that's what makes her good, not just one of the two.

We talked about Typhoon damage count and the fact that 6-7 star SCOPs charge faster than you think, but there's no convincing you there. The financial cost of wrecking units is relevant, and why wouldn't it be? The result is the same, losing hp, although the distribution is different. Yes, Max may have won by then, and that's all the more reason to use Max instead of Kindle.

Most of them do not represent very high gameplay. But very specific games between two skilled players that do not make mistakes are rare. And most people don't play perfect games anyway (if that is at all possible) so you might just look at the map stats since they're relevant to most players.

My view on tiers is that you need to play well enough. Not perfectly, but well enough. Otherwise, you have to start speculating on what large mistakes you're making in specific matchups.

Like I said, Andy repairs the 1hp damage with his cop or preferably scop, but he also has less damaged units (they get repaired during powers) and if he has them then he often does not need to put them on cities for repairs. He can repair them for free. So besides the repairing of mass damage, Andy also has less units on urban terrain, and those things together make him a counter.

Kindle won't get COP again before most of the affected units are repaired already. Sure, Andy can save a few thousand in repairs by not doing so, but that isn't the main reason why Andy beats Kindle. Andy wins not due to being a counter but due to being better in general.

Anyone with 120 attack would have 2HKOd the tank, so what's the big deal? That is almost every CO during COP with a tower. Hawke and Max would have done it D2D, even.

The big deal is that Hawke wouldn't have COP ready. Kindles COP is only 3 stars. Hawkes COP is 5 stars (and a waste since his scop is even better.) Also notice that there's no counterattack damage, mass damaging units to 7hp means easy picking and little or no counterattack damage for tank vs tanks on cities. Hawke would have gotten 3hp counterattack damage for the first tank. (5hp counterattack damage if it had been a Kindle tank on that city.)

You're grasping to straws if you think Urban Blight is good for avoiding 3 hp counterattack damage from one matchup. That's just ludicrously bad compared to what other powers do.

No, the mechs were behind tanks and covering them and were backup up by artillery. Lone mechs are cannon fodder. Mechs covering tank lines are cost efficient and great for defense. Mechs are less than half the price of tanks, but often do the same amount of damage as tanks. So as long as infantry can't threaten them and they are already where they want to be, they're great.

There's no convincing you there, either, but their movement makes them inflexible for counterattacks and they can't threaten tanks that are preparing for 2HKO / OHKO chains.

Where are these proper tests of yours?

I have tried Kindle. Admittedly, the previous one was vs. excri, since I don't want to pick her in too high tiers. I have tried mechs, even as Sami. They weren't useful enough. The more tanks I build, the better the results appear to be. It is not uncommon that my tanks ripped through enemy units while enemy mechs did nothing. However, these are getting fewer, since I don't see so many mechs nowadays.

Like I said I did not play less efficiently, and neither did some other people. If Kindle and mechs keep winning me games then I'll keep using them.

That's the thing, they didn't seem to work in the game vs. Diwa, and I haven't seen them actually help you that much. But feel free to do what you want, if you think they help.

That could be true for you, but I certainly play more efficiently now and I have noticed that some other people do so as well. My past self would probably lose rather hard against me.

I noticed a lot a players are playing much better, and there are more better players as well. However we were talking about an old game of mine and I do not play better now than 4 years ago.

Sure, your play style is unoptimal now, too. By that logic, I guess you could argue to disclude your losses from your current games, if you have made mistakes in other areas than what we are evaluating.

[benbever]

We talked about Typhoon damage count and the fact that 6-7 star SCOPs charge faster than you think, but there's no convincing you there. The financial cost of wrecking units is relevant, and why wouldn't it be? The result is the same, losing hp, although the distribution is different. Yes, Max may have won by then, and that's all the more reason to use Max instead of Kindle.

Except Max can't always use his first (S)COP to wipe out a large portion of the enemy army, while Kindles COP is always at least a bit good. Max can get stuck against a good tank/mech/artillery/mdtank defence (especially in terrain heavy maps.) Kindle would have been a better choice then.
Enemy units losing HP is important in a mass damage power, but the way it is distributed is too. And 6-7 star SCOPs charge exactly as fast as 6 years ago. They take a lot longer to charge than a 2 or 3 star COP, hence why less stars is better.

My view on tiers is that you need to play well enough...Otherwise, you have to start speculating on what large mistakes you're making in specific matchups.

So if league games on league maps are not well enough played for you to take the Kindle doing better than average stats into account, that just means you have less stats to work with.

Andy wins not due to being a counter but due to being better in general.

CO's are not better or worse in general, they don't exist in a vacuum and never play against bland CO's. You have to compare them against each other, preferably same tier CO's. Andy is not a better CO than Kindle, but he can sometimes take her on because he's a counter. In fact Andy is good because he's a counter to a lot of CO's. If the other CO's didn't have mass damage powers, and they all had a movement bonus power within 6 stars, then Andy would be less good then he is now. He's good because he's so often a counter. He heals damage from the mass damages CO's and gets first strikes in on CO's with no movement bonus.

You're grasping to straws if you think Urban Blight is good for avoiding 3 hp counterattack damage from one matchup. That's just ludicrously bad compared to what other powers do.

Urban Blight can avoid counterattack damage from more than one matchup, and also gives an attack bonus from cities and deals mass damage. It's all these together that make it a great COP. Most other powers, especially COPs, generally do just one thing.

but their movement makes them inflexible for counterattacks and they can't threaten tanks that are preparing for 2HKO / OHKO chains.

Even Max can't 2HKO/OHKO an entire army. Especially not if most of it is beyond reach of the tanks and bcopters. For every tank two mechs can be build, and one tank can't sweep away two mechs, especially not if mountains are involved. Mechs do a fine job defending if there's a mass of units that needs defending. They can even get on mountains where other land units that do damage to tanks can't go. One mech can cover 12 tanks around it. In practice it's cover just the units in front of it, so half of that. That's enough, it does what it need to just. Just mechs doesn't work, but as a supporting unit it's often useful and cost efficient.

I have tried Kindle. Admittedly, the previous one was vs. excri, since I don't want to pick her in too high tiers. I have tried mechs, even as Sami. They weren't useful enough. The more tanks I build, the better the results appear to be.

Then by all means build more tanks. If you play on maps where tankspam is the winning strategy, just go all out on tanks. I'd do the same. In my games I sometimes pick Kindle and sometimes build mechs (I hope these games count as proper tests as well) and they almost always come in useful and do what they're expected to do. Kindle is always a tough opponent too. I'd rather face simpler to handle CO's.