Differences between AWBW and AWDS

[GipFace]

There should be a BIG FAT DISCLAIMER on the post that indicates that this tier list is only for AWBW and not AW3 (Dual Strike). Some people need a big message to get the hint, because there are vast differences between these two versions of Advance Wars. For example, Grit is the worst CO in the game in AW3.

[Kamuscha]

I beg to differ. Grit is NOT the worst CO in any version of AW!!!!!!!!!

[Heartless]

When Heartless refers to "metagames", he means the strategies used in the game. For instance, heavy use of tanks and infantry with artillery support (+ copters/AAs when applicable) is the current metagame. A couple years ago, it was heavy use of artillery and infs with tank support. When he said "If the metagame starts including things such as high-fund maps", I assume he's talking about a case where high funds games become the new standard way to play (correct me if I'm wrong, heartless).

Pretty much.

There should be a BIG FAT DISCLAIMER on the post that indicates that this tier list is only for AWBW and not AW3 (Dual Strike). Some people need a big message to get the hint, because there are vast differences between these two versions of Advance Wars. For example, Grit is the worst CO in the game in AW3.

what, did someone really think this was a tier list for AWDS? Dude, you can't claim something like that and not tell us what happened.

The name of the topic does have AWBW in it

[Kamuscha]

what, did someone really think this was a tier list for AWDS? Dude, you can't claim something like that and not tell us what happened.

The name of the topic does have AWBW in it

The Truth.

Official AWBW CO Tier List

[Walker]

I beg to differ. Grit is NOT the worst CO in any version of AW!!!!!!!!!

Kam, trust me. You do NOT want to start that argument.

But on the topic of Grit, he's a pretty weird CO anyways (and I'm talking about AWBW here). On most maps he's crazy broken, and he definitely deserves to be a broken CO. But he is also the only broken who can be beaten by a non-broken CO regularly, namely Grimm. There are also specific types of maps, mainly very open maps with multiple fronts, where he is merely high or top tier. Sometimes he's the most broken of anyone, but he also is the only broken with the potential to be less than broken sometimes.

[GipFace]

what, did someone really think this was a tier list for AWDS?
Considering the original AW3 tier list was just the current AWBW tier list with one or two changes here and there, I believe my concern is justified. Grit was considered to be broken by many up until about a year and a half ago, until we at WWN became tired of AW4 (Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict) and explored AW3. We played actual games (stream via webcam, then emulator) using AWBW maps, and we eventually realized Grit was the worst CO in the game. Therefore, that AW3 tier list (which you can see here) was negatively influenced by AWBW.

Sometimes (Grit is) the most broken of anyone, but he also is the only broken with the potential to be less than broken sometimes.
In AW3 Grit just flat-out sucks. It doesn't matter if the map is open or not; Grit loses every time. I'd even take AW3 Lash (with her +5/+0 per terrain star) over him. Grit's 4-range artillery is worse than the 7 spatial range of a tank, so all he has is a D2D that's worse than bland. There are other reasons, but I'll hold off on them unless you wish to play a game of AW3 with one of us.

[Juigi]

To elaborate on Mr. Abrasive's points:

Early game - Grit must use his 80% ATK Light Tanks to respond to Recon harassment, infantry and Recons have disproportionate CO Meter charging
Mid game - Grit's COP most likely won't affect many units to begin with when it's ready, when COPs charge up too fast for passive play
Late game - Black Bombs away*, bye bye Artillery clump
Long story short - Grit can't handle speed play

Come to think of it, doesn't Grit get that +1 range in the first place most likely in an attempt to stop him from being speedstomped? Where have I seen somebody get ridiculous power in an (failed) attempt to stop speedsters from raping him?

*Black Bomb doesn't get banned because the Megatank has so many 180% vehicle matchups and so much defense, and infantry spam hinders it too. Personally, I'm actually not mindful of the Black Bomb's mere concept (far from it, even), but I don't like the set damage even if it's the reason infantry spam stops it, and I find the Megatank so unoriginal to begin with. (Bigger tank, really?)

[Kamuscha]

I beg to differ. Grit is NOT the worst CO in any version of AW!!!!!!!!!

Kam, trust me. You don't NOT want to start that argument.

But on the topic of Grit, he's a pretty weird CO anyways (and I'm talking about AWBW here). On most maps he's crazy broken, and he definitely deserves to be a broken CO. But he is also the only broken who can be beaten by a non-broken CO regularly, namely Grimm. There are also specific types of maps, mainly very open maps with multiple fronts, where he is merely high or top tier. Sometimes he's the most broken of anyone, but he also is the only broken with the potential to be less than broken sometimes.

I appreciate your concern, but I will back up, argue for and support Grit as a strong CO no matter what!

Sometimes (Grit is) the most broken of anyone, but he also is the only broken with the potential to be less than broken sometimes.
In AW3 Grit just flat-out sucks. It doesn't matter if the map is open or not; Grit loses every time. I'd even take AW3 Lash (with her +5/+0 per terrain star) over him. Grit's 4-range artillery is worse than the 7 spatial range of a tank, so all he has is a D2D that's worse than bland. There are other reasons, but I'll hold off on them unless you wish to play a game of AW3 with one of us.

Don't I see a contradiction in your post? In quoting that Grit is sometimes the most broken and could also be less than broken - he loses every time?

How does a CO that is sometimes the most broken of all, lose every single time?

Lash would lose too cause she won't be able to break through his defenses. Grit usually loses cause its the player who doesn't know how to play him.

And how about we settle this with 2 games. Grit vs Lash. 1 Open map and 1 Chokepointy map. They have been created here on AWBW. You pick Lash and the password is awbw



Based on your previous statement about Grit being the worst CO of all, he should lose both games. Let's see if you're right about that.

[Frostylight]

Ohoho! A duel challenge!
Just like in the Wild West! I will be watching this with a bowl of popcorn.

[headphone]

Ohoho! A duel challenge!
Just like in the Wild West! I will be watching this with a bowl of popcorn.

[GipFace]

Black Bomb doesn't get banned because the Megatank has so many 180% vehicle matchups and so much defense
What? Umm... no. The black bomb isn't banned because it's actually a fair unit in AW3, though I can see why it's not used in AWBW. It is almost impossible to bank for one in AW3 unless the opponent isn't applying any direct vehicle pressure.

Don't I see a contradiction in your post?
Italics = quoted post, not my post

And how about we settle this with 2 games. Grit vs Lash. 1 Open map and 1 Chokepointy map. They have been created here on AWBW.
I don't play AWBW because I can't be bothered with a bastardized version of the game. Playing a game on AWBW would prove nothing. AW3 has charge rates of inf/mech=0.4, recon/tank/arty/antiair=1.0, b-copter=1.2. This causes AW3 gameplay to be based around tempo and power timings instead of defensive positioning. Arty is nothing more than a one-of or two-of unit in AW3, and that is the real reason why Grit sucks.

I would be more than pleased to play you over AW3, however. And yes, it's possible. One person streams the emulator output, the other player lists commands. That's how we've been doing things when not playing in person.

Lash would lose too cause she won't be able to break through his defenses.
Here's the issue with static defense in AW3. You build an arty cluster or some cute immobile defensive position, and the other guy will bank for a black bomb.

By the way, for reference, here's the current WWN AW3 tier list. Assumes airports available:
B: Hachi, Sensei, Colin, Javier 2T, Kanbei
1: Sami, Eagle, Rachel, Kindle, Von Bolt, Olaf, Hawke, Drake
2: Sonja, Javier 1T, Jess, Max, Grimm, Andy, Koal, Adder
3: Sasha, Nell, Flak, Jugger, Jake, Lash, Javier 0T, Grit

[YukiKitsune]

FYI
Nothing is banned in AWDS

and this is about the AWBW CO tier list, It has nothing to do with AWDS or WWN, so please kindly stop trying to compare/change topic/whatever/etc.

Thanks

[Kamuscha]

Black Bomb doesn't get banned because the Megatank has so many 180% vehicle matchups and so much defense
What? Umm... no. The black bomb isn't banned because it's actually a fair unit in AW3, though I can see why it's not used in AWBW. It is almost impossible to bank for one in AW3 unless the opponent isn't applying any direct vehicle pressure.

Don't I see a contradiction in your post?
Italics = quoted post, not my post

And how about we settle this with 2 games. Grit vs Lash. 1 Open map and 1 Chokepointy map. They have been created here on AWBW.
I don't play AWBW because I can't be bothered with a bastardized version of the game. Playing a game on AWBW would prove nothing. AW3 has charge rates of inf/mech=0.4, recon/tank/arty/antiair=1.0, b-copter=1.2. This causes AW3 gameplay to be based around tempo and power timings instead of defensive positioning. Arty is nothing more than a one-of or two-of unit in AW3, and that is the real reason why Grit sucks.

I would be more than pleased to play you over AW3, however. And yes, it's possible. One person streams the emulator output, the other player lists commands. That's how we've been doing things when not playing in person.

Lash would lose too cause she won't be able to break through his defenses.
Here's the issue with static defense in AW3. You build an arty cluster or some cute immobile defensive position, and the other guy will bank for a black bomb.

By the way, for reference, here's the current WWN AW3 tier list. Assumes airports available:
B: Hachi, Sensei, Colin, Javier 2T, Kanbei
1: Sami, Eagle, Rachel, Kindle, Von Bolt, Olaf, Hawke, Drake
2: Sonja, Javier 1T, Jess, Max, Grimm, Andy, Koal, Adder
3: Sasha, Nell, Flak, Jugger, Jake, Lash, Javier 0T, Grit

By saying that AWBW is a bastardized version of the game,

This version of Advance Wars is a bit of an amalgamation of Advance Wars, Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising, and Advance Wars: Dual Strike.

you are saying that AW:DS is a bastardized game too. And if you're not willing to play a bastardized game such as AW:DS, be it on AWBW or otherwise, then it only means that you do not have the balls to face my challenge.

[Frostylight]

well... being that AWBW is very clicky-based, and can be tedious for some players, it does sound like a valid reason to not want to play... I don't completely buy it though. What differences there are with AWBW and AW3 are not that extreme. As an observer, I'd say, "Just play the games" and see what happens.

I have noticed that in some Grit games (yes, I did lurk the site), the Grit players who lost were not using his abilities all that properly, and those kind of mistakes can open up the possibility of a loss - explaining the claim of "omg grit sux".

[Xenesis]

By saying that AWBW is a bastardized version of the game,

This version of Advance Wars is a bit of an amalgamation of Advance Wars, Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising, and Advance Wars: Dual Strike.

you are saying that AW:DS is a bastardized game too. And if you're not willing to play a bastardized game such as AW:DS, be it on AWBW or otherwise, then it only means that you do not have the balls to face my challenge.

I got linked to this earlier, and I REALLY must say that you're full of crap right here.

AWBW is essentially a mod of AW2 with AWDS stuff hacked in. It has done a very good job of being an accessible way to play AW but it is not a faithful reproduction of any version of the game. It is no more legitimate of an official version of Advance Wars as my silly Advance Wars hacks are.

You might not like AWDS, but it is a legitimate AW game and has it's own flaws. The only way it could be a bastardised game is if nintendo officially disowned it.

What differences there are with AWBW and AW3 are not that extreme.

Do you want the laundry list?

But I'll humour you and give you the biggest two:
Unit charge is not based on cost, rather on a value depending on the unit type.
But basically, an infantry in AWBW is worth 1/9 (11%) of a star. It's 2/5 (40%) in AWDS. Most other units give somewhere between 20 and 50% more than their AWBW equivalents. Also note that in AWDS, the change of a CO's unit price doesn't affect the charge rate. Colin gets 2 stars at the same rate as Kanbei.

This equates into just about every CO power being about half the cost, timeline wise. For comparison. Sensei can lose 5 infs and use Copter command, while in AWBW it will take 18. Or for AWBW comparisons, it would be like if Urban Blight cost 0.7 stars, Copter Command cost 0.5. The most expensive powers in the game (Ex Machina) only cost 3-4.

The second of course is that just about every CO from AW2 that's also in AWDS received a bevvy of stat tweaks (Jess for example gained +10% across the board to infs and vehicles, Max/Olaf are COMPLETELY different, Sturm doesn't exist, etc.)

There's also a death of a thousand cuts of small things that change too.