Stormiest Glen

[Walker]

Here is the original version:
Stormy Glen


And here is the highly improved, newer version:
Stormiest Glen


If you haven't seen it before, this map has a rather unique gimmick. On Day 1, you choose from one of four piped sections, each one offering its own advantages for the game. Here's a quick rundown of each section (from the map comments):

Your choices are essentially:
1) Go for cities. It allows an early extra arty, but no tank advantages. You have 4k extra
within the first 10 days.
2) Go for the port. You can control the island airports, and gain up to an extra 3k.
However, it takes longer to get this extra funding, and you will have to spend for an
early black boat instead of a tank to guarantee the airport control.
3) Go for the airport. You can control an early airport and have the choice to build early
copters (as early as day 5). You gain an extra 2k in the first 5 days, and have the option
later to build a t-copter and capture the port and city in the port section, for a total
of 4k extra.
4) Go for the tower. You can use the tower and missile to improve your attacking threat,
possibly winning contested properties and good positioning in the center. You can only
gain an extra 1k, however.

I have put a lot of thought and work into this map, and have discussed it with a lot of people. So what I want to know is, which piped section is the best, if any? The reasons behind your choice would be nice too.

[marxistplot]

Cool map

They all seem like pretty good choices to me.

The only iffy thing i see is that some options seem to counter others a little bit (the dock looks much better if you can use it to challenge his only access to air, if he takes the airport then what your contesting isn't as valuable)

Based on that, unless my co had a blatant preference, i would probably hold my ground and pick based off of what i see the other guy do.

[Walker]

Yeah, but the choice thing goes both ways. Player 1 gets to choose first and can prompt Player 2 to choose a certain section. So Player 1 is able to drive the play somewhat because they have first pick. But Player 2 also gets to choose the section that counters Player 1. And of course, Player 1 also gets the choice to pass if they want, and let Player 2 choose first. I don't think it's imbalanced, especially since the sections aren't very strong counters to each other in any case.

[ichbinsehselber]

I have voted for the cities. The extra income should allow to put your opponent under pressure from the start.

[Walker]

The best option is obviously the 4 cities. If it were 3 instead of 4, then the other options might seem better. 4 cities means 21 income once capture phase is over, which means 3 tanks a day.

I think the only other option that could be worth it would have to be the comm tower, city, and missile silo, but you would have to essentially win the game with an early rush by taking more cities in the middle and leaving the opponent without forces to counter attack.

Either way, because the 4 cities is the best option without question, there is FTA.

I think there is a lot of question. With the airport you also end with 21k and have an extra airport and port in addition. You do need a t-copter and more time to get the extra funds, but they're there nonetheless. With the port, you end with 20k, and once again have an extra port and airport. You do need a bboat for this, but it takes less time to get the extra funds than if you chose the airport.

With the tower/missile you do end up with only 18k, but having 2 towers and a missile can be more useful than you're giving it credit for. 2 towers allows you to get 2HKOs in a lot of useful situations (2 tanks vs. tank on city for example), the early tower can be used to contest properties more easily, and the missile can drastically impact your opponent's positioning and decisions. Even if you can't get a funding advantage in the center from early aggression and positioning (which is somewhat unlikely), I would argue that 2 towers and a missile are sufficient supports to win even against a 3k funding disadvantage.

Also, you have not taken into account at all different CO choices. Which choice is best will be impacted by which CO you want to choose. If you look at each tier individually, I don't think you can say that the cities will always be the best choice. For instance if you're in mid tier, which CO would you choose with cities that makes them so much better than Max or Grimm with 2 towers? While the cities are obviously the best choice for someone like Sasha, I think the airports are useful for a lot of COs. I also think you're underrating the effect a battleship from that corner could have.

So anyways, I don't think the cities are "the best option without question".

[Felix45]

when you build a tcopter or a bboat though you are taking away vehicles you could build for the battle in the center. If you lose properties in the center because you decide to build a tcopter or bboat it is hardly worth it, especially because those extra airports or ports you go capture take so long to get. I know if I saw my opponent build a bboat or tcopter I would more than likely attack that day, because I know he is going to have one less vehicle to attack with than me, and thus I will be at the advantage.

Not to mention, you are using 5k to capture a city or 2 in what will be at least 4 or 5 days, and then 5 more days just to make back what you spent on that tcopter. Unless you get some really good use of the extra port or airport you capture because of that tcpoter, it isn't going to be worth it at all.

[hetchel]

First, let me say that I love the idea behind this map. I wish more maps would be like this.

I'm playing on the map currently, and I chose the cities while Abroxas chose the airport. I think that for our game, my choice is superior on the long run.
Right now we are expanding to the island airports and we each got one, which means that I can now go capture my corner port and airport.
I will then end up with 4k more income, of course supposing nothing important happened to the balance in the center, so all this is only theory.
It could have been difficult if my opponent had chosen the port: maybe I wouldn't have secured access to the island airport, which would make the city choice bad.

I don't see any choice that is always superior, so I think the map is great. I wonder if there is any reason to keep this kind of great idea in a "Misc" category, rather than in normal league maps.

[Abroxas]

Here's the link to our battle:

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=158191

I'm really excited about this. Hetchel starts with a funds advantage and a bigger focus on vehicles. But if I can take the game fast enough to the next stage I can play out a little advantage for while, that is until hetchel gets his second airport. But in this case I messed up my capture phase allowing hetchel to gain a significant funds advantage and to put me under heavy pressure.

[Walker]

Unless you get some really good use of the extra port or airport you capture because of that tcpoter, it isn't going to be worth it at all.

I guess the main question boils down to how much an airport is really worth. I set up the map with the idea that the piped airport is worth approximately 2k, considering it's positioning. The idea is that the game is more or less even between someone who has 19k with an airport and someone who has 21k with no airport. Then the bonus is that if you can afford to spend 5k on a t-copter, you can gain another 2-3 properties, including another port and maybe airport.

There's also a couple things worth noting:
- Building copters helps unit count
- It takes until day 10 to capture all 4 cities in the piped section
- If you build the t-copter after day 10, it is unlikely that you will lose properties because of it
- If you never build a bboat and let your opponent take both side airports, that can be a lot of trouble for you

[Felix45]

Unit count is only worth noting if you are using the unit to attack or help meatshield. If you were using the tcopter to transport sami mechs to the front then sure, it is worth it and you should count it. But if you are using it to travel 2 days to caputre properties and it isn't meatshielding anything, then it hardly counts for anything until you have dropped the infantry 2 days later and can bring it to the fight. There is no point in counting the infantry or AA that you start with because they can't fight until you use a transport to bring them into the battle. That is the reason why you attack on a day you see your opponent build a transport; you see they essentially have 1 less unit that day and they used 5k or 7.5k on something that cannot help them anytime soon, which automatically gives you an advantage.
If the game was even up to this point, this is the perfect time to attack.

I wish I still had my game on arials aced with black wave.....but essentially what happened is what I described. He built a tcopter late game to get the extra city in the corner. That day I attacked and took one of the contested properties. After that I was just starting to set up camp with rockets to protect the city and he resigned. Yes the map is smaller and the capture phase is different, but if you don't think so then watch my game with fdkanns. I can be sure I won't be building bboat until I have secured all of the central properties and there is no chance for me to take any of his. That is 1 tank lost when I build a bboat, and only for the gain of a potential bcopter 2 days later. I won't be making those funds back until the game is essentially over. You are way over-estimating how good bcopters are. They are good, but you don't need them. They can help unit count by essentially allowing your unit production to go up by 1 for a day, that is another bonus but still does not make them worth what you pay for them in this battle (because you have to buy a transport that you only will be getting use of from capturing 1-3 properties max)

[Walker]

When I said building copters helps unit count, I was referring specifically to b-copters. Obviously a t-copter that you send away from the front doesn't support your unit count.

That is the reason why you attack on a day you see your opponent build a transport; you see they essentially have 1 less unit that day and they used 5k or 7.5k on something that cannot help them anytime soon, which automatically gives you an advantage.

Having a small unit advantage does not mean that you are able to attack effectively. If the central properties have already been captured, which they likely will be by day 10-12 (assuming the game is relatively even), then it is not a guarantee that you will be able to attack, even with greater numbers. That's why I mentioned both that it takes until day 10 for the cities option to even get to 21k, and that building a t-copter after that point will probably not result in lost properties. If you build your defense right (you will want an arty or two), the extra vehicle will not equate to auto-loss.

You are way over-estimating how good bcopters are. They are good, but you don't need them.

So let's say your opponent goes for the airport piped section, you go for cities. Your opponent can begin building battle copters around day 6. Now obviously it's a dumb decision to spam b-copters, but one or two give your opponent a unit count boost in the center (more infs), and force an AA from you. Furthermore, b-copters can switch fronts much more easily than AAs due to the terrain (and relative heaviness of mountains near the center), and it's possible to gain a property advantage or pick off a couple infs. At the very worst, you could be forced into a less forward, aggressive position in order to protect all units.

Building the t-copter after day 10 is not a huge risk then. Being down 7-6 or 8-7 in vehicle count is not nearly as bad as 3-2 or 4-3, especially if you have arties and can sit in and defend. Your opponent can go get 2 extra properties, and a third as well if you have not spent the 7,5k on a bboat to go get the island airport (in which case your opponent is not behind in vehicle count). If the game manages to get into the late game, a bomber or bship or even just consistent copters from those side properties can be game-winning or, at the very least, quite annoying.

[Felix45]

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=156196

Here we go! Look at this game, download the replay with hetchel's thing, and watch. Look at the vehicle count when he built his tcopter and I attacked. Now try to convince me of what you are saying is true with this example, on a map that it is EXTREMELY easy to defend and OFTEN results in stalemates between high level players.

[Walker]

I can't use hetchel's replay saver, so unfortunately I can't watch it. And in any case, I am not trying to convince you that what I'm saying is true for with regards to your game with black_wave. I'm not talking about that game at all, in fact. I would prefer to draw conclusions about Stormiest Glen based on games played on Stormiest Glen itself, not games played on other maps.

[Felix45]

Ah...actually now I understand how hetchel's tool works, you have to download it while it is still on the server. Once it is deleted, you can no longer download it to his replay viewer. So I guess if I want to see games later on, I have to download them before they are removed from my "your games" page.

The point is though that he took away from vehicle count for a day by building tcopter, I attacked on the day he did so, I took a central property, he lost the game as a result. I wish it at least showed the log so I could count exactly how many vehicles were in play, but I know it was on day 10 that I attacked, and by that point on arials aced there are about 7-9 vehicles per side, depending on what vehicles were built.

It is the SAME thing I am arguing for stormiest glen. If you are building a tcopter to do what you suggested, this could easily happen, and because of this problem, the airport choice is not as good as the 4 cities. It isn't theory crafting when this happens in practice and there is an example of it happening. This is the same for any map like this where you can build transport to get cities you normally would not have been able to get. You are arguing 7-9 vehicles is enough to have adequately covered the center, but it definitely is NOT and that is why I am bringing up this example where I know it is MUCH harder to take central cities and hold them because the map stalemates so often. Keep in mind arials aced is MUCH SMALLER and MUCH EASIER to defend. Stormiest glen is MUCH BIGGER and MUCH HARDER to defend all central properties. Hell, in your game you still haven't captured all of the properties on your side, and both of you have been building transports.

If you really don't agree I have no problem showing you in practice, make the game and let me go first. If you really think there is no FTA, and that your picking the airport will be better than my picking the 4 cities, prove it to me. I know it isn't better and I will be more than ready to attack when a transport is built to win the game.

[Walker]

Haha if anything my game directly contradicts what you've been saying. The vehicle count is 10-6 in my favor, he's built several t-copters, and there is no way I can attack into him successfully.

And you also seem to be misunderstanding my argument. I'm not saying that the airport is a better choice than the cities. I'm saying that you can't know for sure that the cities are best in all situations. I absolutely hope that there isn't a best choice at all - that's the whole goal of the map. You are very adamant that the person who chooses the cities will always win; I am very adamant that the other 3 choices are perfectly capable of winning, that the cities are not always the best choice, and that CO choice plays a role in determining which is best for any specific battle. The argument about attacking into someone with a vehicle advantage really has nothing to do with it - I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.

I would love to play a test game on it, but I would prefer to wait and see how the Colosseum games on it go. That is the whole point of Colosseum this season, to test unusual ideas by playing competitive games on unique maps (HF, FoW, broken CO, gimmick maps). So the Colosseum games should give plenty of good evidence towards how the 4 choices' balance is.