CO Tiers discussion

[Ultra Storm]

When you play with Nell, you should have sufficient backup plans so that your attack doesn't end miserably due to one unlucky shot. You should try to make it so that you can attack alright with decent luck damage but can flexibly change into a stronger attack pattern if you get particularly lucky. You could do it so that you can kill the main units anyway and extra units on the sides if you get lucky. Of course, this is often difficult but you should at least make it sure your front doesn't collapse with that one unlucky shot.

[Harti]

To justify a CO being tier 1, a player with a tier 1 CO should be able to win every game against an equally skilled player with a tier 2 (or worse) CO on a map which doesn't favor any of their COs.

This does not apply for Nell.

[Taz]

But if Nell isn't tier 1, this doesn't apply either to all tier 1 COs against Nell...

[benbever]

http://advancewars.net/strategy/cos/aw2/drake
This site is incredibly accurate when it comes to D2Ds (every single luck value was correct) and power bonuses, so Drake should have 100/100 naval units but +0/10 for naval units on COP/SCOP.

Don't you mean 100/110 naval units and +10% defense on (s)cop for all units? That's what that site says.
I tested it in AW2, and Drake indeed had 100/110 naval units. 120 defense during SCOP (the normal +10% defense.)
I don't know why AWBW has 100/125 naval units when AW2 has 100/110 naval units. Lots of websites and faqs have these stats wrong, back then people didn't care so much or knew about defense.

Test cartridge: Advance Wars 2 Black Hole Rising, AGB-AW2P-EUR (european game boy advance cartridge.)
Tested with: Adder vs Drake, bship vs bship, sub vs bship, sub vs sub etc.

Oh cool, why do I have to face those millionth Nell games?
I used her once, I did do some cool additional 1 HP damage within inf-inf fights D2D, and on a midgame COP I wasn't even able to OHKO _ANY_ unit my opponent had, including a 7 HP tank on plains which I attacked with my tank. My Arty dealt 9 HP damage to an Infantry on plains. Three of my Infantries brang my opponent's Tank down to 7 HP. The only lucky shot happened when my Infantry dealt 4 HP of damage to an Arty but that was about it - every other damage was not insane on COP.
I never played her again. She's unreliable. And if you're really unlucky anyway, you only get into awkward all-or-nothing situations where a simple Andy COP/SCOP can fix all of his units and overrun your now damaged ones.

On AWBW she doesn't work quite right. She gets much less luck than she should get. Kinda like how sonja gets more bad luck than she should get, but more extreme. I found this out while playing a game with Nell vs Max with Taz, and later in the leagues too. But I never bothered making a bug report about it. I calculated the chances of Nell getting so little luck in that game were less than 1 in 1000. So there's something wrong with the code or the stats are not quite right.

Nell should really be tier 2, or else I want to see Jugger in tier 4 and Flak in tier 3. Because "some insane luck damage on COP/SCOP is guaranteed unless you're really unlucky"

No way. Flak and Jugger guarantee nothing, they can get both very good luck but also very bad luck during powers. Nell can't always hold her own against the likes of von Bolt, but often she can. She can be very dangerous. It's hard to put her in a tier, she can be put in the 1.5 or 2 tier in Ultras list.

C'mon, concede that you only want her in tier 1 because she's a blonde?

I concede I want her in tier 1 because then she gets banned more often. She isn't suitable for tournament play, just for fun games, arguably league games, because those are unfair already. She also has the potential to be very dangerous, or broken, so she isn't out of place in tier 1. She can also take on Von Bolt on the right maps (lotsa unit maps.)

[Haku]

On AWBW she doesn't work quite right. She gets much less luck than she should get. Kinda like how sonja gets more bad luck than she should get, but more extreme. I found this out while playing a game with Nell vs Max with Taz, and later in the leagues too. But I never bothered making a bug report about it. I calculated the chances of Nell getting so little luck in that game were less than 1 in 1000. So there's something wrong with the code or the stats are not quite right.

That's not quite true. I just get so lucky that nobody else does.

[Fungi127]

I have a question, would 1 Tower Jess play significantly differently from OT Jess? Enough to make a Tier jump? Like, add 1T Jess, like we've done with Javier.

[Ultra Storm]

To justify a CO being tier 1, a player with a tier 1 CO should be able to win every game against an equally skilled player with a tier 2 (or worse) CO on a map which doesn't favor any of their COs.

This does not apply for Nell.

If you strictly use that definition, you have to place every CO in their own tier. Actually, even strictly testing it is impossible. Rather, I used the following definition: a CO is in tier 1 if that CO would be overwhelmingly strong in tier 2 and is relatively capable of defeating COs in tier 1 (hard to judge accurately). In other words, every tier is a ban list of the previous tier.

So, how about this tier list?

Broken: Colin, Kanbei, Sensei, Hachi, Grit, Javier2T+
Tier 1: Javier1T, Sami, Sturm, Von Bolt
Tier 2: Nell
Tier 3: Sasha, Kindle, Sonja (fog)
Tier 4: Rachel, Eagle, Grimm
Tier 5: Andy, Lash, Adder, Max, Hawke
Tier 6: Koal, Drake, Olaf, Jake, Javier0T
Tier 7: Jess, Flak, Jugger, Sonja (no fog)

[EchelonThree]

So, how about this tier list?

Broken: Colin, Kanbei, Sensei, Hachi, Grit, Javier2T+
Tier 1: Javier1T, Sami, Sturm, Von Bolt
Tier 2: Nell
Tier 3: Sasha, Kindle, Sonja (fog)
Tier 4: Rachel, Eagle, Grimm
Tier 5: Andy, Lash, Adder, Max, Hawke
Tier 6: Koal, Drake, Olaf, Jake, Javier0T
Tier 7: Jess, Flak, Jugger, Sonja (no fog)

I generally agree, but I'd make the following amendments:
Bold indicates that CO has been moved up
Italics indicates that Co has been moved down


Broken: Colin, Kanbei, Sensei, Hachi, Grit, Javier2T+
Tier 1: Javier1T, Sami, Sturm, Von Bolt
Tier 2: Nell
Tier 3: Sasha, Kindle
Tier 4: Rachel, Eagle, Grimm, Lash, Andy, Sonja (fog)
Tier 5: Adder, Hawke, Javier0T, Olaf
Tier 6: Koal, Drake, Jake, Max
Tier 7: Jess, Flak, Jugger, Sonja (no fog)

[Black Mont-Blanc]

MVP: Olaf & Olaf(Invoke COP fast and CO swap)
Broken: CGH, Kanbei, Sturm
Tier 1: Sensei, Eagle
Tier 2: Nell, Sami, Javier(1T)
Tier 3: Sasha, Sonja(FoW) Lash, Hawke, Von Bolt
Tier 4: Andy, Jake, Rachel, Kindle
Tier 5: Olaf, Drake, Javier, Adder, Koal
Tier 6: Max, Sonja, Grimm
Tier 7: Jess, Flak, Jugger

I can't beat VS. Eagle or Sturm game.

[Ultra Storm]

Broken: Colin, Kanbei, Sensei, Hachi, Grit, Javier2T+
Tier 1: Javier1T, Sami, Sturm, Von Bolt
Tier 2: Nell
Tier 3: Sasha, Kindle
Tier 4: Rachel, Eagle, Grimm, Lash, Andy, Sonja (fog)
Tier 5: Adder, Hawke, Javier0T, Olaf
Tier 6: Koal, Drake, Jake, Max
Tier 7: Jess, Flak, Jugger, Sonja (no fog)

When would you choose Andy over Rachel or Eagle? You have theorized about Lash before but she doesn't really work in practice against COs with such strong powers. And is there any justification for Javier0T being such a powerhouse?

[mrapex]

MVP: Olaf & Olaf(Invoke COP fast and CO swap)
Broken: CGH, Kanbei, Sturm
Tier 1: Sensei, Eagle
Tier 2: Nell, Sami, Javier(1T)
Tier 3: Sasha, Sonja(FoW) Lash, Hawke, Von Bolt
Tier 4: Andy, Jake, Rachel, Kindle
Tier 5: Olaf, Drake, Javier, Adder, Koal
Tier 6: Max, Sonja, Grimm
Tier 7: Jess, Flak, Jugger

I can't beat VS. Eagle or Sturm game.

lol @ sensei in teir 1.

I do agree strum is so close to broken he should be in, but sensei is definatly broken.


Heres my list and I'm pretty happy with it. You guys are ridiculous for putting nell so high, she cant stand up to sami, vonbolt or javier1T, they're powerhouses.



mrapex's list:


Broken: Colin, Kanbei, Sensei, Hachi, Grit, Javier2T+
Tier 1: Strum
Tier 2: Javier1T, Sami, Von Bolt
Tier 3: Sasha, Kindle, Nell
Tier 4: Rachel, Eagle, Lash
Tier 5: Andy, Grimm, Hawke, Max, Adder
Tier 6: Olaf, Drake, Koal
Tier 7: Jake, Javier0T,
Tier 8: Jess, Flak, Jugger, Sonja (no fog)

[Hellraider]

It would be nice to limit yourselves to 4/5 tiers. Making more is not really sensible imo, since it depends too heavily on the map anyway. So an general outline should be just fine.

[JakeSamiRulz]

Yeah, a short tier list is better than a long one.

God: Colin, Hachi, Grit, Kanbei, Javier2T+, Sensei
S: Sturm, Sami, Von Bolt, Javier1T
A: Nell, Kindle, Sasha
B: Sonja(fog), Rachel, Lash, Andy, Eagle, Grimm,
C: Hawke, Adder, Olaf, Javier0T
D: Drake, Max, Jake, Koal
F: Jess, Jugger, Flak, Sonja (no fog)

Or even shorter...

S: Colin, Hachi, Grit, Kanbei, Javier2T+, Sensei
A: Sturm, Sami, Von Bolt, Javier1T, Nell, Kindle, Sasha
B: Sonja(fog), Rachel, Lash, Andy, Eagle, Grimm, Hawke, Adder, Olaf, Javier0T
C: Drake, Max, Jake, Koal, Jess, Jugger, Flak, Sonja (no fog)

I agree for the most part with the tiers for the CO's stated here

[Manga]

Is Javier the most versatile CO there when he can be on three different tiers in the same tier list?

[Falkenwing]

Is Javier the most versatile CO there when he can be on three different tiers in the same tier list?

Yeah probably. Almost every map has comms, and if you use your COP right, you can bash through the enemy meatshield, with an added ?30? attack.