Colosseum Season 6 Standings - Winner is Ultra Storm!

[Walker]

Yeah, that's very similar to what I did on Black Dawn and also Assassins I think.

[Abroxas]

ichbinsehselber has written:
Another nice feature about a fog game is that you actually can manage to get vision of the enemy bases by your own actions. This may be very difficult or fairly easy depending on the map.

This made me thinking of the current Colosseum map Stormiest Glenn. There is a predeployed infantry which you can send to one of four directions which provide different sets of properties. Maybe it is possible to mnake something similar with subs, starting from a pipe seam with several canals available. Each canal gives certain information but you can't switch afterwards. If the sub is dived, chances are good that the enemy doesn't even know which canal you chose.
Hard thing about this will be designing a map with these canals that isn't screwed up. This calls... you know... for a real map master.

[hetchel]

In most RTS games, which are played with Fog of War, you have access to scouting tools. You can divert resources to units/abilities exclusively made for scouting, you can make reads on what the opponent has from just seeing a few units, stuff like that. In AWBW, you can hide all your stuff until the first battle if you want to, which leads to a significant amount of blind guessing and defensive play. You can't do things like pick off vulnerable infantry or threaten to take a property or anything that lets you gain initiative, because you have no idea what actually works and what not. Of course, technically you can, but the expectation value of these attacks will always be far below zero (maybe killing an inf vs maybe lose a tank, for instance) so they would not be viable even for gamblers. In later stages of the game, you cannot really see the weakness in the enemies formation, or the lack of reinforcements on a front, so you have a similar situation there. Also, in most games a similar amount of stuff fighting each other will trade about even usually. In AWBW, the outcome of battles depends on up to the tiniest of details so you will not end up just losing a bit if you make an ill-informed attack, you will most likely lose the game.

That being said, I think that predeployed sight-providers are at least worth testing out, which is basically what is done at the moment. The degree to which they should give vision is variable and might be overdone currently. For instance, it probably is not necessary to have the airports far away backwards + under opponents vision. It is obviously fine to have to take educated guesses, but situations where you can gain a significant advantage just by chance should be avoided. A very simple example which I think I already brought up somewhere, is a capture phase triangle. Recon + normal capturing beats rushing for contested properties + delayed tank beats normal capturing + tank beats recon + normal capturing. Outside of FoW normal capturing + tank is the norm because you can punish the overall funds loss from rushing for contested properties, but in FoW you can't. Another situation is that on maps where fronts are completely separate from each other, you can just get screwed over by a recon killing infantry because you built the tank on the wrong base. The predeployed units are basically there to avoid that.

Of course, the RTS analogy is limited.
You make good points on how FoW favors stalemates and luck.
I have not played enough to have solid experience on the matter, but I feel your analysis tries too much to apply the no-FoW competitive state of mind to FoW games.

I mean, I think FoW was designed this way precisely to make surprises possible. Let it be so. There is a capture phase triangle? Then pick paper, rock or scissor, and try to guess which choice the opponent will make: it's the game. In FoW, Gambling isn't something that need to be fixed.

Playing with FoW but without surprises would just be playing with additional difficulties to attack units in forests. It's even more wall-prone, so there'd be no point in doing that.

Another nice feature about a fog game is that you actually can manage to get vision of the enemy bases by your own actions. This may be very difficult or fairly easy depending on the map.

On most maps I played, it is difficult. Do you know good FoW maps which feature spying paths that are not easily blocked?

[ichbinsehselber]

On most maps I played, it is difficult. Do you know good FoW maps which feature spying paths that are not easily blocked?

It is hard to say. I don't normally plan that. If an aggressive recon survives and my opponent might expect that I pull it back for healing, I may instead try to hide it in a forest.
Or you can try to sneak in, like you asked for.
E.g. here http://awbw.amarriner.com/prevmaps.php?maps_id=23739
There is a forest which can theoretically be used to spy on the forward base. Though it is questionable if this is a good plan / strategy.

As the question of stalemates has been opened. In theory FOW may be more prone to stalemate, but in practice In my FOW games there are no stalemates at all.

[Walker]

In theory FOW may be more prone to stalemate, but in practice In my FOW games there are no stalemates at all.

Which is probably because one person unknowingly overextends too much, causing the loss.

[ichbinsehselber]

Yes, but many players also fall down on the other side of the horse. Not enough agressive advance leads to a loss as well as overextension. It is a delicate balance. And this is one of the things which make AWBW in general and FOW in particular interesting.

[Walker]

I agree, that's part of what makes AWBW very interesting. But in FoW you have to guess what is too much and too little advancement, which makes FoW dull.

[Mr--Clean]

I like fog since it makes it less like a chess game and more like a war game.

[Grit Snipe]

I agree with you Mr--Clean.But in AW and AW2 i hate the AI since they always know were your units are unless there in a Forest or Reef in FOW.Good thing this website doesint have the AI.

Plus you can Snipe with arrtilery and do sneack attacks in FOW.Which i like.

[Mr--Clean]

I agree with you Mr--Clean.But in AW and AW2 i hate the AI since they always know were your units are unless there in a Forest or Reef in FOW.Good thing this website doesint have the AI.

Plus you can Snipe with arrtilery and do sneack attacks in FOW.Which i like.

A lot of the reason I dont play aw1 much anymore. Too many predeployed fog maps. All these bombers are coming at me from nowhere and if I dont have my missles exactly in the right place I got to start over.

[ichbinsehselber]

It is obvious that we have a matter of taste here. For some people like Grit Snipe, Mr Clean and me FOW is exciting and fun.
Others like other stuff. So let's try and let everyone have fun where everyone wants!

[Walker]

Agreed. But that doesn't change that I still want to try the predeployed units for vision in FoW in Colosseum this season. If there's a lot of interest in regular FoW, then I have no problem doing something for that next season and/or in another competition.

[ichbinsehselber]

Yeah, I already thought that for this season it is too difficult / too much hassle /whatever for you to change it. Anyway it is good to hear that you are open for next season or tournament...

[hetchel]

Walker, can we restart the "HF 31 - Sheryl Nome vs. hetchel" game? My opponent made a capturing mistake on his base on day 2.

[sarastro]

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=160551

GG Haxxson. I made a serious mistake at the beginning which delays the capture of one neutral base however Haxxson lost a lot of units because position mistakes