Red11 Casual Knockout Tourney ** Announcement **

[Red11]

>>>Maybe Sami should be auto-banned next round?


They will be larger, non-Sami maps. AET/boot will be set longer for a more leisurely game.

[ichbinsehselber]

In case somebody wants to drop out of the tourney and you need a replacement, please consider me.

[Kruegster]

I won my game vs japanj.
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=141653

It was a good game, but I think it would have been more fun if Sami had been banned. Not surprisingly, I won using Sami's SCOP.

[Azzaphox]

That map makes it look like tracked units were blanket banned from your game.
Sami can't be broken fighting Sami can she?

[Kruegster]

I think Sami was broken-or if not broken, Sami took the fun out of the game. Sami vs Sami when each player has 4 capitals is primarily not a game of strategy but a game of luck. Whoever can get the capital with an inf spam or with Sami's SCOP wins! It doesn't matter how many units you have or how much money you have. All that matters is taking one of the capitals. You can take a look at my match to see what I am saying: http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=141653 I was earning almost half as much money as japanj, but in the end I won

[Red11]

japanj played a strong and honourable game, thanks for playing! Im not quite sure what happened with his final move, was he not quite able to gain Sami's Scop and not quite able to muster a defense at the hq you took?

I dont think awbw is the only game where the final result doesnt necessarily reflect the net performance of the players through the entire game. Three games in the 1st round swung dramatically away from the player that really should have won!

I hope everyone is grinding their axes for round 2. ha!

[Kruegster]

japanj played a strong and honourable game, thanks for playing! Im not quite sure what happened with his final move, was he not quite able to gain Sami's Scop and not quite able to muster a defense at the hq you took?

I had taken many t-copter attacks, which helped put my power bar higher. For his last move he went all out and attacked me, but then maybe he simply realized that in doing so, I could use my SCOP? After my power bar was full, I don't think he could have defended the capital even if he had tried, while using his SCOP at the end of the turn. I could have destroyed an inf on his capital with 2 of my inf, or I could have destroyed an air unit with my fighter (and after the unit on the capital is destoryed, one of my inf captures it to win the game).

Rather than attacking me, he should have either retreated, or not attacked with his copters to try to stop me from using my SCOP, since I was so close to one of his capitals.

[Azzaphox]

I think it is really hard to choose to not attack - there are some occasions in this game where not attacking is much better then pressing forwards

[fdkanns]

With Sami and multiple HQs it is ofter very good to just hold one important front on the map while "intentionally losing at the others to some extend" in order to get an earlier SCOP.
(you can addionally force this my suiciding units like b-copters or recons)

There are similar issues with eagle vs eagle where SCOPing first is worth a lot

[Red11]

I havent examined the Kruester vs. jjapan game closely, but from what Im hearing BM should have put everything into defense and attempted to produce a Sami scop inviolate position at all his hqs. Easier said than done,im sure. He's go the right idea matching BHs fighters, they just should have come sooner, ie he has to be anticipating BH's plan before it even materialises. He has to create the situation where BH cant knock out a fighter on that weak hq.

BM then sits on his material advantage and so forces BH to do something. This something comes in the form of a large SCOP move to capture as many properties as possible. Unfortunately this move is counteracted by the player playing Sami's Scop *second*, who then recaptures as much as possible.

I think 'Luck' is not such an easily defined term. There are many shades to this term. There is pure luck, like tossing a coin, there is the notion of 'fortune favours the brave' or 'You make your own luck', there is this other notion of luck that maybe in fact something more like intuition or experience or knowing your opponent well. What maybe called luck may be the aggregate of these other factors at work. jjapan has likely lost this game due to a lack of experience with Sami. I remember the 1st hundred games or so i was still making those kind of miscalculations. I think experience is a very influential factor in awbw. For example, it really does take a lot of game experience to learn the damage chart well.

[Kruegster]

I think 'Luck' is not such an easily defined term. There are many shades to this term.

Very true. I am not going to say that a game Sami vs. Sami or Eagle vs. Eagle is a game solely of luck. However, I think luck plays a bigger role in such a battle. For instance, I am sure that if two players of a similar skill level would play 10 games one after the other with Sami vs. Sami or Eagle vs. Eagle, they both could win around half of the games (If I were to face japanj on the same map with the same settings, I doubt I could win 3 times in a row). This phenomenon would be less likely to occur if you have other COs face off, such as Andy vs. Andy or Koal vs. Koal. One problem with a Sami vs. Sami game or and Eagle vs. Eagle game is that that the game can end in one day. One day both players have a very equal number of units, the next day Sami takes the opponent's capital or Eagle destroys most of the opponent's non-infantry units. Little mistakes are increadibly deadly for a Sami or Eagle face-off. It only takes one day for everything to change.

[Red11]

I can see your point and agree.

Maybe as a general point you could argue that the more complex something is, like a game, the more chance there is of human error, and hence the notion of luck. I guess conversely to this you could argue the more complex a game is, the more it tests the ability of a player to avoid mistakes.

See Iain M. Banks "The Player of Games" for a literary description of an exhaustingly complex game.

[Red11]

Update: psychoguy has forfeited his game, but shompiador_kalabaza (OS) has not automatically qualified to round 2.

Instead:


D-18 "Greyhound"

shompiador_kalabaza (OS) versus ichbinsehselber (BM)

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=143837

[ichbinsehselber]

Thanks for allowing me to join your tournament. I will try not to delay your tourney.

[Small Geezer]

In my loss to I'm Pro - it was mainly due to a poor CO choice on my part. The moment I saw that I was up against Sami, I knew I'd lost, plus with my secondary area only containing 1 base, it was always going to be difficult to defend it!

There is luck in a Sami vs Sami game, but I personally believe the skill of the player and the map are the more determining factors.