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Postby Ultra Storm » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:52 am

I told of the possible FTA to Hellraider before I even made the game, but he didn't consider it a problem. Since it was apparently legal, I based my strategy on it and picked the side with the advantage. So, I don't want to restart the game, since he chose not to take action back then.
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Postby Sothis » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:02 am

Alright then nevermind.
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Postby Dhomochevsky » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:53 pm

That's beside the point being raised though. If the tournament aims to be fair, and the map isn't fair, then either choose a new map or have both sides agree to a solution, e.g. each side takes 1 central city each at the start.

Conversely, if the map is fair, continue as normal.

So the question is surely about whether the map is fair, then if not, what the solution is. Hellraider has just suggested that GE/BM do have the advantage, which is perhaps why both hellraider and ultra storm picked that side. As he points out, if the starting player is Lash it could be a problem. Coincidentally, this is exactly the situation in our game...

In other words, everyone agrees that GE/BM have an advantage. So it seems the options are: agree to have 1 city apiece (Ultra has already said he doesn't wish to do this), or have a new map (as the games haven't gone on long).

Easiest option: new map ;)
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Postby Hellraider » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:34 pm

OS/YC has several options of how to approach things.

- OS sends their infantry mid too. If GE does not do the same, OS/YC will win the fight over the middle short term-wise. If GE does the same, the ensuing brawl is slightly slanted towards BM because they have control over the middle silo tile. Every player can decide when they stop sending infantry towards the mid. Both properties will stay uncaptured for a while, and a normal game with vehicles takes place.

- YC captures the port first turn instead, which allows them to build the first tank mid. OS can either capture two near properties as well to build a tank in the same round or send their infantry mid to disrupt BM's capture (and maybe build an arty instead)

- OS/YC focus their efforts towards the contested properties on the other fronts instead, and only aim to avoid that BM captures both properties. That is an 1k income difference in the mid, which can be negated on the other fronts.

To sum it up. Going for port first always gives YC some early extra funding they can use, and due to the short supply lines having the first vehicle mid is quite advantageous.
Lash wins the middle against bland COs anyway, no matter which team she is on.
There are two other fronts with contested properties which are worth fighting for too, so all in all I think that the advantage BM/GE hold in the center is minor enough.

I can't dismiss the map as entirely clean and would have preferred if both bases had the same distance from the center, but most other 2vs2 maps available have even more dubious capture phases. Usually because the starting circumstances of players in their team are different but the FTA counter lacks, or due to first vehicle issues. Either that or they are so big that any possible FTA doesn't matter anymore.
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Postby Ultra Storm » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:59 pm

Dhomochevsky wrote:That's beside the point being raised though. If the tournament aims to be fair, and the map isn't fair, then either choose a new map or have both sides agree to a solution, e.g. each side takes 1 central city each at the start.

Conversely, if the map is fair, continue as normal.

So the question is surely about whether the map is fair, then if not, what the solution is. Hellraider has just suggested that GE/BM do have the advantage, which is perhaps why both hellraider and ultra storm picked that side. As he points out, if the starting player is Lash it could be a problem. Coincidentally, this is exactly the situation in our game...

In other words, everyone agrees that GE/BM have an advantage. So it seems the options are: agree to have 1 city apiece (Ultra has already said he doesn't wish to do this), or have a new map (as the games haven't gone on long).

Easiest option: new map ;)
What has been said now is exactly what I told Hellraider before. If there was no problem back then, there should be no reason for him to change his mind now and it seems like he in fact hasn't. I'm not going to go through the trouble of restarting everything over something I have already reported long ago.

As I recall, usually when I've voiced concerns about map balance, they have been shrugged off as only slight imbalance. I've told people not to place overcontested center properties that favor one side but people tend to make and accept imbalanced maps anyway. The situation happens to be even worse in 2 vs 2 maps. Indeed, there's an even easier option than yours: not to play 2 vs 2 games, since the maps aren't very good.

So, now it's apparently just another slight balance problem that we'll have to live with. Otherwise, I'd like a veto right on maps as well, especially after the games start. :wink:
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Postby Sothis » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:40 pm

I think the issue is simpler than that, Hellraider. If BM and YC move to the middle, BM captures its front city while attacking YC's capture with the 2nd BM infantry. Result: BM finishes its capture and YC does not. The rest of the battle there is not the point as the FTA is clear from this alone.

Saying that this can be avoided by OS helping out doesn't work either since GE can follow suit, leaving the same FTA advantage for BM/GE.

Sure OS/YC can simply forfeit the center in response but that doesn't change the issue. It just means the FTA cannot be overcome and they must choose a less effective strategy hoping to make it up later.

FTA is FTA. Other concerns like that don't make it okay. It doesn't matter though and I'm not saying we should start a new game or anything, the players clearly don't agree on that. I was just surprised at how such a basic FTA situation is being described as no problem.
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Postby Kamuscha » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:41 pm

We might as well take a city for each side and then fight for the others later on with our own strategies, which makes the game interesting. As it stands now, the BM capture-block by itself can easily turn the game into a wallfest over an uncaptured city and make the game less fun. And I know that's not the goal of this tournament.
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Postby Haku » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:27 am

I join Hellraider's team.
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Postby madcowz » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:48 pm

How are we supposed to report results? Shompiador_kalabaza was booted in our game.
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Postby Walker » Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:40 pm

I think you can just report them here, or pm Hellraider. Also it looked like you were definitely going to win regardless.
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Postby blozzee » Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:06 pm

alright.. I just won a game against funwes
http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=131130

what next
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Postby Hellraider » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:34 am

I'll start the next round once a few more of the games are finished. And once I have replaced certain parts of my team.
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Postby Cereal Killer » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:54 pm

Hellraider wrote:I'll start the next round once a few more of the games are finished. And once I have replaced certain parts of my team.
Is funwes still in or did he say he's resigning? Otherwise you just have kalabaza right?
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Postby funwes » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:18 pm

Sorry :( That's all I can say
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Postby DuelStriker » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:06 pm

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=131184

I'm not exactly sure what happened in my game with Headphone, I ended my turn on 9/2, and he was AET'd twice according to the log, and it's still his turn now apparently...
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