Differences between AWBW and AWDS

[Kamuscha]

As a hard Grit player like yourself, what are your reasons for discrediting him so much to the point of touting him as the worst CO?

Unless I am wrong, I don't understand why you have taken the stance at trying to end the discussion when it could be a bridge for sharing perspectives and information regarding the differences between AWBW and AWDS as per the thread title. True, I am being very aggressive at supporting Grit and will always be no matter what. He remains my top 5 favorite CO's and won't shy away from it anytime soon. Even at times when I get backlogged with crumbling artilleries, I will always think of Grit as an awesome CO.

It's nice that you have written a book in AWDS. I'd like to read it if you don't mind.

In regards to playtesting, not one person has come through in terms of meeting my challenges with Grit, even when I offered to play the AWDS version online. How am I theorytarding when nobody's willing to face a Grit master like me? Not to mention the fact that I still play AWDS. I will take your word about Gipface being the best AW player although I have my doubts. But since he is the best AW player, there is no reason to doubt his ability to defeat me whenever I play as Grit be it on AWDS or AWBW, right? And since I am stumbling upon scrub territory with several artilleries, I guess there is some reason to fear Grit's indirects.

And how would you define the typical AWBW tactics that you see these days? Not everyone who plays on AWBW has the same playstyle, so using that stereotype sounds like a blanket statement unless you specify what kind of tactics you are referring to.


But most of all, I am sorry that you have parted ways with Grit.

[DarthAttix]

As a hard Grit player like yourself, what are your reasons for discrediting him so much to the point of touting him as the worst CO?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBeGMNoh0M

Figured I'd kill two birds with one stone: "LOL Tanks" and "two bad matchups mean nothing." In enters bad matchup #3 and the reason we didn't have Grit Tank up last time.
Anymore questions you'd like to ask?

Unless I am wrong, I don't understand why you have taken the stance at trying to end the discussion when it could be a bridge for sharing perspectives and information regarding the differences between AWBW and AWDS as per the thread title. True, I am being very aggressive at supporting Grit and will always be no matter what. He remains my top 5 favorite CO's and won't shy away from it anytime soon. Even at times when I get backlogged with crumbling artilleries, I will always think of Grit as an awesome CO.

Because I've had this argument a dozen times and it just doesn't interest me.

It's nice that you have written a book in AWDS. I'd like to read it if you don't mind.

http://forums.advancewars.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4725

In regards to playtesting, not one person has come through in terms of meeting my challenges with Grit, even when I offered to play the AWDS version online. How am I theorytarding when nobody's willing to face a Grit master like me? Not to mention the fact that I still play AWDS. I will take your word about Gipface being the best AW player although I have my doubts. But since he is the best AW player, there is no reason to doubt his ability to defeat me whenever I play as Grit be it on AWDS or AWBW, right? And since I am stumbling upon scrub territory with several artilleries, I guess there is some reason to fear Grit's indirects.

I can't speak to why GipFace won't play you, but he is the only one with the proper streaming setup as far as I know. And as far as accusing you of being a scrub, you accused my videos of being faulty without offering up a recording of your own; ergo, textbook scrub. My guess is that someone isn't spamming when they should be, but since you apparently lack recording equipment I can't really say anything substantial beyond, "You're wrong, I'm right, and I have evidence proving it."

And how would you define the typical AWBW tactics that you see these days? Not everyone who plays on AWBW has the same playstyle, so using that stereotype sounds like a blanket statement unless you specify what kind of tactics you are referring to.

Generally when I see someone try to translate AWBW into AWDS they don't make optimal use of CO power management. AWDS is a game where a 7-star SCOP can fire off before a 6-Star one and expect to have that CO win. We're talking day 8 or 9 here with SCOP#2 as early as day 12. As such, spamming the units who benefit from these powers is crucial to winning. Now if you compare the recordings I've given you, you'll see that Grit does substantially better with a pure Indirect build than a Direct build despite the same not being true in AWBW. This is because Direct-build Grit has no answer to a day 8 or 9 SCOP because the one or two Artillery he might have by then not not enough to stem the oncoming tide of units, and his Directs are still underpowered during either CO power. The only reason the Artillery build did as well as it did was precisely because it took advantage of Grit's SCOP.

A lot of what I say will make more sense after you read that guide. It's meant to be an AI-to-PvP shakedown, but the point gets across. The relationship of AWBW to AWDS is a bit like the one from AWDS to AWDoR: Yes, you can transfer the tactics over to the different gameplay, and yes you can create and maintain a whole metagame around that without it occurring to anyone to change strategies. But much like the AWDoR metagame evolved to take advantage of its own mechanics, we've also run across AWDS mechanics that have changed that metagame. And with as many of us who take what I've told you seriously (which is to say nearly every member of every AW forum besides this one), you're going to have to accept that you may not know as much about this game as you think you do.

[Abroxas]

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

I'd really like to get a glimpse on that but you may understand that I won't register for just gaining access to the pdf data. Would you mind linking it directly?

[Hellraider]

I don't actually know anything about how many people play AWDS how regularily, but I can only imagine that the average AWDS map size is also far smaller than an AWBW map due to the nature of how playing against each other works. Day 8 or Day 9 SCOP is a handful infantry being killed and tanks clashing into each other already, while it is far from unusual that there hasn't been any battle yet on day 8/9 on slightly bigger sized AWBW maps.

[DarthAttix]

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

I'd really like to get a glimpse on that but you may understand that I won't register for just gaining access to the pdf data. Would you mind linking it directly?

I'll fix it when I get a chance this evening, I gotta go to work fairly soon.

I don't actually know anything about how many people play AWDS how regularily, but I can only imagine that the average AWDS map size is also far smaller than an AWBW map due to the nature of how playing against each other works. Day 8 or Day 9 SCOP is a handful infantry being killed and tanks clashing into each other already, while it is far from unusual that there hasn't been any battle yet on day 8/9 on slightly bigger sized AWBW maps.

Actually the day 8 or 9 thing has more to do with the charging system. Once the two armies start fighting you can expect the first SCOP within four days (hence why you can use SCOP on day 8 and again on day 12). On the largest size map like my personal favorite, you'll still get SCOPs no later than day 10 unless neither of you chooses to transport-rush for some odd reason.

The reason it charges so fast in this game is because each unit has a set amount of star power they charge for. Your basic units grant proportionally more than larger units; Infantry charge 0.4 stars, Mechs 0.6, APCs 1, and Tanks/Recons/Arties and other transports 1.2. Because of how fast this lets you charge stars, it is a perfectly legitimate strategy in AWDS to just shred non-essential units to get that last star filled and light off, especially if you have mass damage or some other power that doesn't require much if any timing. You can do that because the payoff is much bigger than what it actually cost you to charge up in the first place; which, again, is especially true if you're using a CO with powers that don't require timing.

With each usage each star's value increases by 0.2, capping at 2.8 on the 9th use and resetting to 2 on the 10th use. However in actual practice this is only a marginal slowdown at best, as once you and your opponent(s) finally get the ball rolling you'll rarely go 6 days without someone lighting off.

[/rant]

[Hellraider]

I know the charging system, thank you. But if a map is big enough and both players play the capture phase correctly so that no battle happens at day 8, 9 or 10, then there is no charge, regardless whether it is AWBW or AWDS. All that I wanted to say is that I believe that the average map for competitive AWDS (if it exists) is smaller than for AWBW. Which in turn also affects Grit's relative strength compared to other COs.

[Im_Pro_You_Blow]

Shouldn't troll threads go in random chat?

[GipFace]

Holy sh!t. How did this thread go to hell?

First off, FHQ (DarthAttix) doesn't represent the views of WWN, because he actually hasn't played any games with our playtest group. He prefers playing games with himself, which as we all know is SO ACCURATE. </sarcasm>

I've already written the book on AWDS, literally, and there's nothing left to discuss.

LOLLZ You mean you took some of WWN's discoveries and reiterated them in a poorly-written PDF that everyone at #wwn has dismissed. (Sven closed it the moment it mentioned rockets) By the way, I've mirrored the PDF here.

Second, the replay at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3o-IvFzjpY is a complete joke and nobody should be referencing it. This involved FHQ playing himself and using a terrible opening. In fact, Sven and I played that map five months ago (with me as 1P Grit) and I won because the map sucks. See http://www.justin.tv/gipstream2/b/282401121 -- Kamuscha, you didn't need to write a wall of text to rebut that video.

I had a bunch of replays from when we really put Grit through the grinder, but my original justin.tv account got banned after I streamed some porn. (We played Grit on more than one sh!t map) lololol~

FHQ, you mean well, but nobody over at WWN is going to back you up if you try to explain the WWN AW3 tier list with sh!tty replays and inaccurate explanations. It also doesn't help if you insult everyone who disagrees with you. Good day.

EDIT: Full disclosure - I've probably had maybe 40 games of AW3 PVP at most. This is in contrast to the over 9000 games of AW4 PVP I've logged. So no, AW3 competitive play isn't too serious, and I'm not declaring myself the best AW3 player by any means. However, judging from WWN's discoveries with only 40 games, we'll assume that no one else has bothered to explore the possibilities. AW4 PVP took over two years to stabilize, so there's likely still untapped potential we're not seeing.

[Walker]

Gip, you have earned my respect with that single post. Well-played.

[Kamuscha]

Gip, you have earned my respect with that single post. Well-played.

Seconded.

[DarthAttix]

FHQ, you mean well, but nobody over at WWN is going to back you up if you try to explain the WWN AW3 tier list with sh!tty replays and inaccurate explanations. It also doesn't help if you insult everyone who disagrees with you. Good day.

Dude, has it ever occurred to you that maybe I'm just trolling and don't really give a fnck what AWBW thinks? This is the same group of people that dragged me through the mud and gave me the reputation that you still to this day choose to attach to me. I don't mean well at all. Good day.

Edit: Wait, when did I talk about rockets as a serious unit? I mentioned them exactly once explaining Artillery pitfalls, but that's the only time I even use the word in the entire guide.

[Kamuscha]

The loss of respect is your own undoing. GipFace earned it because he is standing up for himself and voluntarily, gave you some useful advice for the future. It is not anyone else's fault that you are miserable, but you.

And AWBW is not the same as it once was 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 years ago. Perhaps you might have some grudge against the people who trumped your nerves at some point, but don't take it out on all of us as if it were our fault. It is extremely unfair, mostly to you since you are doing yourself a huge disservice by cutting off ties that could help you out in the long run, maybe give you a unique perspective if you are willing to listen.

If given the opportunity in life, we have our own choices to make and ultimately, live with it.



I would appreciate if you did not troll anymore. It doesn't solve anything and creates issues that anyone can do without, even you.

Thank you


EDIT: Rockets are the best units the game when Grit uses them.

[GipFace]

In regards to playtesting, not one person has come through in terms of meeting my challenges with Grit, even when I offered to play the AWDS version online.

I'll take this as "yes I'll play you." Name the time and I'll meet you on the #awbw IRC channel? As for maps, pick whatever you like but it needs an airport, it must be 30x20 or less (AW3 size restriction), and it must not be a sea map where you need a bunch of landers to launch an offensive.

Wait, when did I talk about rockets as a serious unit?

In the guide, it states that rockets could be used to support an offensive. This is about as silly as a claim as neotanks/bombers/battleships/megatanks being capable of supporting an offensive. (Yes yes there's Hachi and Colin, but forget them) The game is just too fast for those units to ever be built, though the neotank is narrow tech against a luck CO who is using inf+md tanks. (In order to maximize luck, luck COs are played such that build composition is close to 90% infantry, while using the excess cash on md tanks. Luck COs either want low base damage or very high base damage, otherwise vehicle COs such as Jess/Max provide better value.) So why even bother mentioning niche units? AW3 has five common units: inf/recon/tank/antiair/b-copter. The last two are only seen as a 1x or 2x unless the game is long. The tank/b-copter/antiair unit triangle, though significant in AW4 due to damage and formulas, plays a reduced role in AW3, so I don't know why the guide detailed that bit. In fact, any b-copter that is produced will just beeline to the enemy and suicide itself for an easy CO bar charge.

Anyway, the problem is that this PDF is mostly a CO overview and actually doesn't cover much strategy at all. I don't know why you even bothered writing it in the first place. (And yes my AW4 guide is incomplete, but I'll probably never finish the strategy section because no one plays it anymore. You'd have to pay me to finish it now.)

[Kamuscha]

@Kamuscha:
I'll take this as "yes I'll play you." Name the time and I'll meet you on the #awbw IRC channel? As for maps, pick whatever you like but it needs an airport, it must be 30x20 or less (AW3 size restriction), and it must not be a sea map where you need a bunch of landers to launch an offensive.

@DarthAttix:
Anyway, the problem is that this PDF is mostly a CO overview and actually doesn't cover much strategy at all. I don't know why you even bothered writing it in the first place. (And yes my AW4 guide is incomplete, but I'll probably never finish the strategy section because no one plays it anymore. You'd have to pay me to finish it now.)

I will eventually get back to you about IRC via pm. I just got some unfinished business IRL to take care of first. Map-wise, I will set it up when I'm ready and keep your suggestions into consideration. It makes sense since

"oh, im weak cO i haev rokets blew up ur landr lololol +1 range lololo"

I want a link to the game where Kam "playtests" Grit if it happens.

Patience, my friend. Good things come to those who wait.

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

I have managed to read the attached pdf all the way through. Aside from the obvious bias towards direct play, what struck me the most is

These COs are also an incredibly cruel joke to pull on friends who are less
knowledgeable at the game than you are. If you ever run across a cocky player who
thinks he's hot stuff, pull one of these guys on him. It's hilarious.

This reminded me of the exact reason why I chose to stay on AWBW years ago, to help those who know very little about the game learn the ways across the battlefield and watch them grow as intelligent strategists so that they become very capable of handling things on their own, and then eventually surpass my skills (even though I may not like it at times).

Believe it or not, it takes real courage and bravery to use low-tier CO's like Grit and 0TJavier (as per your write-up), to go against a higher-tier CO. All I see is cowardice when a broken CO is used to hurt someone else's self-esteem.