CO Tiers discussion

[rast]

Those or you who are rating 1T Javier high.. are you assuming the opponent also has 1T?

[Harti]

Those or you who are rating 1T Javier high.. are you assuming the opponent also has 1T?

Yes they are.
Javier 1T is kinda like VB 0T. VB is top tier because of his 110/110 D2D stats.

Javier has got a COP that doubles the tower bonus and gives further +10/+10, making his units 130/130 for a turn (1T). Indirects are no match for his tanks. Javier's units have +0/+20 against indirects and on COP/SCOP even more (+40 resp. +60), making them close to invulnerable there.

By what means is Javier 1T worse than any high tier CO with 1T? Surely, 120/110 VB (1T) is higher than Javier 110/110 (1T) but VB isn't gonna make much use of indirects and will most likely suffer hard from the COPs.

[Cereal Killer]

Brokens: Colin, Hachi, Grit, Kanbei, Sensei, 2T+ Javier

1st Tier: (should be banned on certain maps): Eagle, Sami, Sturm, VB, and Lash.

2nd Tier: (Some can be easily as good as Tier one CO's, but some such as Kindle lack usefulness on enough maps to be tier 1 imo): Nell, Sasha, Rachel, Kindle, Adder, and 1T Javier.

3rd Tier (nothing special): Drake, Olaf, Max, Andy, Jake.

4th Tier (Not as low as the tier below them, but have a considerable weakness to the CO's above them): Javier 0T, Grimm, Koal, and Hawke.

5th Tier (say hello to the AWBW trash heap): Jess, Sonja, Flak, Jugger.

Three Co's I can already tell you I'm getting hit badly for are Lash, Grimm, and Kindle. But I'm ready to defend that, I just didn't want to put it in my post atm.

[snipur]

I'm just curious. Why is Koal that much lower than Adder in your version...?

[Cereal Killer]

I'm just curious. Why is Koal that much lower than Adder in your version...?

Adder's good because of his COP only. Koal's COP costs one more star, which is a big difference when going from 2 to 3.

[Hellraider]

Adder = 1T Javier ? I see ...

[Haku]

Wanna see Eagle beating Nell.

[Falkenwing]

Wanna see Eagle beating Nell.

Well once eagle uses his SCOP, he gets that 2 turn attack phase.
ANd if Nell's bar is charged, then Eagle can take out the important luck units, such as cheap infantry, recons, and fast units and such.

[Cereal Killer]

Wanna see Eagle beating Nell.

http://awbw.amarriner.com/game.php?games_id=115972

[CO_Raven]

Wanna see Eagle beating Nell.

Well once eagle uses his SCOP, he gets that 2 turn attack phase.
ANd if Nell's bar is charged, then Eagle can take out the important luck units, such as cheap infantry, recons, and fast units and such.

From a logical standpoint, Nell will get her scop before eagle gets lightning strike short of a crazily high funds map where someone gets an scop in a matter of a few turns. Her bar is substantially shorter and would probably be able to cop, wait a turn, and then let lightning strike charge her bar again. The initial cop would probably lower how much eagle has to work with, something that he needs for lightning strike to be effective. If he doen't have enough to make a clean sweep, he'll still end up torn apart by Nell's following scop. It seems that short of an air heavy map, Nell has the advantage in a short and meduim term sense while all Eagle has is Lightning strike. As good as it may be, Nell is very good at cutting down the numbers of opposing units and lightning strike is less effective against her raw numbers.

[Ultra Storm]

Three Co's I can already tell you I'm getting hit badly for are Lash, Grimm, and Kindle. But I'm ready to defend that, I just didn't want to put it in my post atm.

Rather, you'll get hit worst for 1T Javier, as has been mentioned. How do you justify VB and Lash being a tier higher despite 1T Javier overshadowing them even mathematically on the vast majority of maps?

Why would you be bashed for placing Kindle in tier 2 like most people, anyway?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is Hawke being a tier under Drake and Olaf. Yes, you get mass damage with a slightly smaller cost but it's less important than a 10 % universal attack boost.

[EchelonThree]

Three Co's I can already tell you I'm getting hit badly for are Lash, Grimm, and Kindle. But I'm ready to defend that, I just didn't want to put it in my post atm.

Yes, you'll get bashed on Lash pretty hard, but Kindle seems alright, the big question marks are on Towerjav, Adder, and Eagle.

Lash has one of the best d2ds around, but she's not tier 1 since her powers (or lack thereof), pull her down.

Eagle's double turn is the best power save maybe VM, but once again, not tier 1 since it takes such a long time.

Adder seems to be a tough call here, he's a strong CO, but on par with Kindle?

Well once eagle uses his SCOP, he gets that 2 turn attack phase.
ANd if Nell's bar is charged, then Eagle can take out the important luck units, such as cheap infantry, recons, and fast units and such.

Not counting the fact that Eagle has an effectively non-existent d2d and that Nell's power is a third of Eagle's, I'd have to agree....

[Cereal Killer]

Rather, you'll get hit worst for 1T Javier, as has been mentioned. How do you justify VB and Lash being a tier higher despite 1T Javier overshadowing them even mathematically on the vast majority of maps?

Why would you be bashed for placing Kindle in tier 2 like most people, anyway?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is Hawke being a tier under Drake and Olaf. Yes, you get mass damage with a slightly smaller cost but it's less important than a 10 % universal attack boost.

Ok I'm gonna address the Olaf, Drake, and Hawke issue first. I would first off not use Olaf's SCOP as you have suggested but rather spam his COP and hinder opponents movement while boosting my units. Drake's SCOP not only has the 2hp dmg but it also has the 1/2 fuel which can prove very useful in a lot of maps +rainy helps in FoW. Not to mention that Drake sea units have +1 mp and a large firepower boost.

The reason I thought I would be bashed for Kindle was because I thought everyone always put her in tier one, guess I was wrong.

I'm not sure where you get 1T Javier overshadowing Lash on most maps since Lash has a barely worse D2D on plains (Note with 1 T Javier I'm factoring in 1 tower for the opponent,) and has a much better COP/ SCOP in general. During capture phase Lash proves very useful with her extra attack from the city. Crippling an infantry significantly who might attack her capturing infantry, Javier cannot do this with 1 T.

In short why Lash is in fact top tier: 1 compare her to VB and Kindle, shes better. Lash has a better d2d on cities than VB and barely worse than Kindle which is crucial in capturing phase and holding territory. But Vb does have a bit better of a d2d overall, I will agree with that , so where does the difference come in? Simple answer: COP/SCOP, while Lash has an easily top 10 SCOP (imo top 5) of all non broken characters VB in fact has one of the worst SCOP's with such a high charge rate and an almost useless missile, all you can really rely on VB for is d2d. I think everyone seriously underestimates Lash's SCOP, it gives you super units for a turn with perfect movement, which is very hard to change strategies to combat midgame. More questions on Lash, I have the feeling I'm missing something, but I can't remember what it is...?

Lastly Eagle: While Eagle may in fact seem like he has a worthless d2d, he does not. His d2d is very effective in copter on copter battles allowing his copter to still be effective in incapacitating the attacking copter if the other attacked first. If Eagle's attacks first however the damage is quite substantial dealing around 75% damage with no luck. But really this isn't why Eagle's so good, it's obviously Lightning Strike. Lightning Strikes awesome power doesn't really need to be explained, but I would like you to think of how much it actually costs in perspective to your opponents COP/ SCOP. You've got to consider that when their using their COP/SCOP and Eagle is not, he is in fact charging his meter, and his opponent is not. Also consider that Eagle can build up his meter the day of the power since using it is most effective once you've moved all your units anyways. Generally speaking this means Eagle actually in fact gets his SCOP the turn after his opponent uses COP/SCOP.

I have however decided to split up my second tier as I originally planned to and add another tier to the division (this includes one other move in moving Max so that he is with Rachel and Adder.) Also after re-evaluation I have decided to move VB down to tier 2 and move 1T Javier to Tier 1. One mistake I made when doing calculations with 1T Javier is I forgot to factor in his terrain added defense. >_<

Brokens: Colin, Hachi, Grit, Kanbei, Sensei, 2T+ Javier

1st Tier: Eagle, Sami, Sturm, Javier 1T, and Lash.

2nd Tier: Nell, Sasha, Kindle, and Von Bolt.

3rd Tier: Rachel, Adder, and Max.

4th Tier: Drake, Olaf, Andy, and Jake.

5th Tier: Javier 0T, Grimm, Koal, and Hawke.

6th Tier: Jess, Sonja, Flak, Jugger.

[JakeSamiRulz]

^I dunno about the above tier list...

I don't think hawke is a fifth tier CO. He has a great D2D, COP and SCOP. Even though they are one-two stars overcosted, his D2D advantage is just great on almost every map. The guy has absolutely no weaknesses... In short, I'd bump him to third.

As for Lash, her D2D is great... but her powers only create super LAND units for the turn. Actually, Lash is only good at LAND units. Sea units get meager boosts, and air units do not get bonuses from terrain stars at all. She isn't as versatile as CO's like Hawke, or Kindle, both of who affect all units on the map (enemy and ally). Not only that, but her powers just take way too long to get there. Lash would have faired better with a shorter bar.

-Terrain Tactics is very, very hard to use correctly due to how slow it is. I have found minor uses in FOW, but outside of FOW, that situational +1 movement is a gamble. She is definitely no Adder.
-Prime Tactics is a great super, but 7*? Lash only gets an attack, defense, and a little movement just mostly for LAND units. CO's like Sasha eat powers like this for breakfast. Max gets a direct boost for 6* that affects land, some sea, and air units. Even Andy's 6* super is laughing at her 7* crap.

In short, her powers are just way too overcosted for her to contend with top tier CO's. Maybe 3rd tier, but not top...

[Falkenwing]

I thought Lash was another koal-ish joke.
Well Jake is right, hawke shouldn't be in 5th tier. Great d2d, but overcosted powers. He can still fare well against many COs.